Safe Speed Forums

I need your help guys!

I was involved in an accident today and although I hit the other car, I'm pretty sure I'm not to blame! Will the insurance companies see it this way though! Here's what happened (please forgive the crude images!)



I'm approaching a mini roundabout (vehicle A) whilst a vehicle (C) is waiting to turn left and at roughly the same speed another vehicle (B) is approaching the roundabout from the third exit. I gauge that I will enter the roundabout at roughly the same time as vehicle B and, having indicated sufficiently in advance, assume right of way at the roundabout. I correctly judge that myself and vehicle B arrive at the roundabout at roughly the same time (if anything, I have entered the roundabout before the other vehicle), and so i start to turn right. As I turn right, vehicle B has failed to give way to me and continued straight on, even speeding up once entered the mini roundabout. As i've noticed vehicle B entering the roundabout, I sharply brake but it is too late and I collide into the side of the vehicle head on.

Noone was hurt in the accident and there seems to be very little damage to my car (majority of damage on the side and door of vehicle B). However it is an expensive car and although there doesn't seem to be too much damage, i'm sure it will be expensive to fix what damage has been inccurred. I know that my front headlights are expensive and the drivers side one will almost certainly have to be replaced!!

Am I right to think that I am correct here? Will the insurance company think this way too? Or because I am the one who hit the other car, am I legally at fault? Does the fact that the driver failed to give way to me mean that she has broken the law and thus they are responsible?

Can anybody help advise me?

Thanks.
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I am with you on this, the other vehicle did not give way to you and whilst this does not give you just cause to drive into them if you were "unable to avoid a collision you should be fine. The key to success is in how you write the descrition of the accident on your claim form and that you provide a good sketch plan.

Be aware however that one of the biggest scams in motoring is the "part settlement" that is nearly always suggested by your insurance company, if you accept this they will profit as they can bumb your premium and remove your no claims, it is your right to stand your ground and insist that they do not accept any share of the blame on your behalf.

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Former Military Police Officer and accident investigator

Welcome.

I also am "with you". Whilst I echo fully what Patch says about avoiding the profiteering knock-for-knock scam that insurers always try to pull, I come from a "what to learn" basis.

My two questions are:

1) Could you reasonably have avoided the collision by missing your turn - going straight on?

2) Were you indicating in plenty of time and telegraphing your intentions with a bit of "keep right" on your approach to the white dot in the road?

If you're not 100% "No I couldn't" and "Yes I was" respectively on these, I would suggest that, whilst you may be legally "right" (and should therefore defend your no-claims as indicated by Patch and avoid knock-for-knock), there is a degree of culpability here from which you can learn for the future. After all, however "right" you are, it's better to avoid the coming together!

Another question: Is it a raised roundabout (humpy) or just a painted dot? If the latter, you're legally entitled to cut over them - and if the situation is clear cut, I'm a great advocate of doing that to demonstrate practically as early as possible to all road users the intended trajectory.

Hope this helps.

If both you and vehicle B arrived at almost exactly the same time it should have been abundantly clear to you that he was not going to stop. In any case, I fail to see how you could get in a position to strike the side of the other vehicle unless you were not paying full attention. I would expect that before you committed to the turn the other vehicle would be well over the line and avoiding action on your part should have been quite easy to achieve.

Sorry, I have to disagree with Patch and in this case I would say you are at least 25% to blame.

Do you have witnesses? If the other driver claims you were not indicating (which they surely will) then it could be your word against his.

Your insurance company will almost certainly go for a 50-50 settlement.

I would agree with Homer that it is likely that the insurance companies will settle this 50:50 as there is no absolutely clear fault and they won't spend any time trying to investigate the situation. You might have more right on your side if the other car had crossed the give way line and driven into your nearside as you turned but as you hit his offside then you share some responsibility.

Remember that, for the purposes of insurance, unless the company can recover ALL its costs from the 3rd party then you will be regarded as having made a fault claim and lose bonus. Sorry.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

If it was abundantly clear she wasn't going to stop, I wouldn't have turned!!

As I mentioned earlier, I arrived at the roundabout slightly earlier than the other driver but she seemed to speed up as I was turning!

I'm not sure about everyone else but when I turn, I actually look into where I'm turning to so as I've turned right at the roundabout I've started looking right having assumed right of way. In this action there is a blind spot to my left which I do not assume another car is going to enter!

Ok. Two more questions which I think may be pivotal:

Which part of your vehicle came into contact with which part of the other party's vehicle at point of impact? (front in their offside, your nearside in their front corner, your front offside corner in their side, your nearside corner in their front)

Did either vehicle sustain "sliding" damage or did both come to a halt at point of impact (mine, theirs, both, neither).

As a further comment - not trying to "get at" you but pre-empting what the other party might say: Your two statements "when I turn, I actually look into where I'm turning to so as I've turned right at the roundabout I've started looking right having assumed right of way" and "he seemed to speed up as he got close to the roundabout" are a little contradictory with "I assumed right of way", insofar as if you detect the one who is in the wrong speeding up, then he is still in your sights and it would be generally foolhardy in such a condition to assume right of way.

Jeremy - welcome. First off, no-one's 'having a go' - the whole idea behind this part of the forum is to discuss accidents and causes, and yes, to critisize or praise where its due.

I would say in your situation it would depend very much on the size of the roundabout. There are mini-roundabouts that are so small that if you're turning right you don't have time to react if the person crossing your path decides to do something stupid. Always, ALWAYS expect that they're not going to stop.

I would say in your specific situation, it would be 50:50. Yes, she moved onto the roundabout when she didn't have right of way, but YOU still hit HER, not the other way round. Since you hit the side of her car, not the front or front wing, I would say that she was on the roundabout long enough / approaching at such a speed as to warn you, for you to have been able to avoid a collision.

I would be VERY surprised if you get a 100% settlement.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Of no help to your insurance claim, but to your future driving; I was taught during my motorcycle tuition to 'stare down' drivers who may pull onto a rountabout you already occupy, so as to encourage eye-contact and thus a recognition that you are there.

If you are not following something closely round a roundabout (and why would you be) and are going at a sensible speed (of course you are) then there is almost always sufficient margin to make this eye-contact with the other drivers. Sounds unusual, but I can guarantee it works!

To answer your two questions:
My front nearside hit her in the side.
Her car slid off course mine stayed stationary.

Yes that did sound contradictory so I'll try to clarify as best I can.
I don't know if it makes a difference but it was at night time (just to set the scene!). Anyway as i've approached the mini roundabout i've indicated to turn. I then start to slow down and look right to see if I have to give way. I've noticed that I do not have to give way and have also noticed another car coming who would have to give way to me. At this point I believed that the car who has to give way was going to stop and proceeded to turn. As I've turned, I then notice the car straight ahead of me in my path and this is where it seemed she started to speed up! I broke sharply but because of the space restrictions on a mini roundabout I could not avoid the collision.

Anyway, the key point is that I'm sure that I entered the roundabout at first and before entering the roundabout I believed that the car was going to give way. It is only apparent to me that she has not given way when I see her car cross my path in front of me at which point it is too late.

I understand that noone is 'having a go' at me, I appreciate the feedback to see what I can expect and to see if and where I went wrong.

Another thing to consider. There was a car to your right. YOU saw that it was signalling to turn, but the driver of the car you hit may have assumed that you were going to stop / slow to give way. It doesn't make any odds in this case, but might be something to keep in mind in future.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Ah yes but if you see from the diagram (not very clear, I know, sorry about that!) The car to my right was turning left not right. I do not have to give way to that car as it doesn't cross my path!

Oh did you mean that the driver I hit assumed it was turning right having not looked properly? That is possible, but again I don't believe that's my fault!

I don't believe you were at fault at all, but I also think you'll find it hard to prove as far as insurance is concerned.

But I think you wasted a valuable avoidance second assuming that your priority protected you. Obviously it doesn't and that's the lesson.

Most crashes take place because one driver makes a mistake and another fails to avoid the first driver's error. You're the chap who 'failed to avoid' and I'm sorry to say it's likely to cost you.

Still if you learn the lesson well, next time you might literally save a life. And in that case it would be a very nice very cheap lesson.

Just trying to help, honest!

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The TSRGD 2002 doesn't differentiate between raised and flat mini roundabouts. They are both diagram 1003.4 and the centre may be raised.
Strangely the blue sign seems the important thing.
The lines usually used are diagram 1003.3, the roundabout is 1003.4 and the sign is 611.1.

Apparently double give-way lines can be used instead, and a give way sign used as well as the blue one then the rules change slightly.

Here are "The requirements conveyed to vehicular traffic on roads by the sign shown in" diagram 611.1 (blue sign):

Also:

And I think this means "driving over white circle gets points":

And for completeness:

That's the law as best as I can find it, unless anyone knows different?

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Andrew.

I totally agree with you there! I was afraid that would be the case. Although I know that I am partly to blame because I should have anticipated the driver's error, I still feel pretty aggrieved because if the error had not occurred, I wouldn't be in this mess!

Usually I am very mindful of other drivers (almost overly cautious at times) as I see many drivers making many bad mistakes (especially at roundabouts). Unfortunately it was on the one occassion I let my guard down that another driver made an error that I failed to see in an advance!

The only promising thing to mention is that when I spoke to the claims department at my insurance company, they seemed quite confident of getting 100% of the costs from the other driver based on what I've told them! TBH I'm less confident that they will achieve this. Mainly because there were witnesses (stupidly I didn't take their statement from them so as to know what to expect) who seemed very sympathetic to the women (and her dog) in question. I doubt very much that I will be able to rely on them to recount a true reflection of events.

Keep the comments coming guys, they're all truly appreciated and I'll keep you informed as events unfold!

I'll try and explain what I mean a bit better.

I don't think Jeremy was "in the wrong", what he did was (on the evidence we have) perfectly correct according to "the book".

But, I think he was partly to blame for the collision because he assumed everyone else would be driving by the same book.

I'm also at a loss to see how someone turning right at a mini roundabout could hit the side of an oncoming vehicle and not be able to avoid the collision. You can't ignore another vehicle just because they shouldn't do something.

I had an incident at a mini roundabout myself this morning. Another vehicle was approaching from my left (no other vehicles around), I had right of way but from the speed of the other vehicle I believed he was not going to stop. I entered the roundabout (thus making it quite clear I intended taking my "right of way") but at a speed which would allow me to stop before a collision if the other driver carried on. The other vehicle did give way but both of us were inconvenienced by my extra cautious approach, a small penalty I was prepared to pay. I could have approached with the attitude that I had right of way and was going to take it at all costs but that would have been little consolation as the tow truck removed my transport and I settled down to a morning filling out insurance forms.

Always assume the other guy is an idiot. Never assume they will do what they are supposed to.

I'll admit, very strange and I'm also confused as to why I didn't see the other vehicle before it was too late! I'll try and reason it as follows.

On approaching the roundabout, it looked to me that the driver was going to stop, I actually entered the roundabout first (of this I'm sure). As I've entered the roundabout and begin turning, my eyes are now focused slightly to the right on to the road I'm turning into. As this has happened, the other driver must have continued on their path (perhaps even speeding up to try and miss me) and entered a blind spot on my left. I do not realise that this has happened until I see the car straight in front of me. As I realise the car has done this, I brake sharply but it is too late and there is a collision.

The point is, I did not enter the roundabout with the mind set that 'it is my right of way, you stop!', I entered it believing that the car was going to stop and give way.

Another thing that I thought of that really put a sting in the whole matter is this, because the mini roundabout was on a T junction, there is only one exit that the driver has to focus on to determine right of way. At other mini roundabouts there are two exits that you have to focus on to determine right of way. My point is, she only had to look at my exit to determine right of way, would it really have been that difficult?

I'm quite wary of mini roundabouts on T junctions. Some just look like they have always been a T junction and I get the feeling that people don't like the 'new' mini roundabout being there so still follow T junction rules, or at least they 'think' T junction rules.
I have been in a situation where there is car A and B and no C, I am car B and car A gave way to me... Or at least they looked as if they did, possibly because they expected me to ignore the roundabout rules? I stopped and waited for them to realise and continue, but still they came co a complete stop as if they expected me to go on. I'm sure this has happened more than once in the same place too.
Although I might just be going mad.

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Andrew.

I've been involved in so many 'stand-offs' at 3-way mini roundabouts where everyone tries to give way all at once...

JC - I'm still confused by something (forgive me if I'm just being thick). You hit the side of her car, but you said that you think you lost site of her as she was in the blind-spot to your left...I just can't quite get my head round that. Was she definately trying to go straight on, or possibly she was trying to go the same way as you and 'nip round' infront before you made the turn?

On the subject of misplaced sympathy. Mate of mine witnessed something local to here. Kid was riding a moped along, quite safely and properly, and some old dear stepped off the pavement in front of him without looking. It knocked them both flying, but most people on the scene were worried whether SHE was OK...

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.