Safe Speed Forums

As all know.. the Swiss family and myself have a bit of a reputation over posting up our concerns over driving when unfit. I suppose my view is coloured by my profession and was enhanced when young Wildy nearly lost her own life when someone was taken fatally ill behind the wheel of his car.

Now .. I am aware the notorious troll has already taken a break from his infatuation with Paul, Krissi and Andreas over on a "for cyclists only" forum - and unfit drivers are probably one of the very rare issues we actually agree with him on..

But we were lucky that a talented and very lovely and graceful woman like Wildy survived.

A talented time trialler, pilot rider, destined to ride with contestants at the Beijing Paralympics in 2008, and tandem rider in many international events ..Zak Carr was not so lucky.

I think Ted did post up this story back in October 2005 when he read of it in the press.

Zak was riding - in full gear - hi-viz and helmet - on th A11 in Norfolk approaching some crossroads at a busy junction. He had actually pulled into a lay-by to allow cars to pass him when.. he was struck from behind. The reflector from his bicycle waas embedded well within the Rover car's front bumper and to the right. The following driver said the car was travelling at 60 mph -ish and did not stop immediately after the impact.

The driver .. a publican called Don Pearce ... was travelling back home from Stansted airport after his holiday in Turkey.

He had only had two hours sleep .. snatched on a coach on on the plane... on an overnight return journey. He fell asleep at the wheel During the trial .. Pearce insisted that he was not tired and had not fallen asleep .. but had not seen the cyclist until the "last minute"
Forensic tests at the accident scene and later on the car concluded that no emergency braking or any braking including a "feathering" had occurred.



Er [b] I have always, always, ALWAYS, posted to this forum that nothing ever occurs "suddenly and from nowhere [b] and that a person must know when they are unfit to operate machinery.. and driving a car is as Wildy once posted herself when discussing the leaflet on any prescribed medication that "operating machinery does really include operating machinery such as driving a car" and if you as the "manager of your life" feel unfit.. then you do not drive.

The court concluded that he fell asleep behind the wheel. Sleep experts described the driver's condition as totally inadequate and concluded he should not have got behind the wheel of his car.

Unlike Gary Hart who served half his 5 year term after causing two trains to collide, Pearce could end up being sentenced to a 14 year stretch.

In CW this week - Keith Bingham (reporter on this mag) writes that thousands of other drivers drive in this condition and "get away with it"

True.. but I think again like this driver.. they do not realise just how draining travel home from a holiday can be.. or even the need to take a 10-15 minute break from driving on a long motorway drive jammed with wave/break jams and temp SPECS for longish distances ...

We can all appreciate that Don Pearce simply wanted to get home to bed after his journey.. but there are reasonably priced and re;atively comfy Novotel type establishments and we've all made use of them and just ensured a fair night's snooze before heading home. It helps get the full benefit of that much needed break from the cut and thrust of work as well..



The CW calls for "random sleep drive tests"

Well.. proper police officers will be on the look-out for tell-tale signs of driving whilst apparently unfit.. and not all of these signs are "evident as a result of blipping above a speed limit" weither. We look at position, the apparent handling, too low a speed and too high a speed... plus some other signs that all is "not well in that car"

It could be drink, drugs, diabetes, heart problem, fatigue... and all these kill....whether driving a car or riding a bike.

All road users then need to be able to judge whether or not they are fit to drive or get on a motorbike or bicycle.

Let us hope that Zak's family find closure from this and that whatever jail term is decided for Mr Pearce.. it reflects some justice for the Carr family but not vengeance. Only justice and a fair but not vengeful sentence will serve and honour the memory of Zak Carr - a loss to cycling and his family.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I think a call for tests and enforcement is a little telling, this really is something thats rather hard to quantify, and should definately be the topic for education!

I had promised someone here to dig out the source for the stats quoted to me in one of my aviation medicine lectures, and this has reminded me so I will, that quoted something like 16 hours of wakefulness will result in a performance imparement equal to being at the drink drive limit.

I'd like to think that the majority of drivers would be more realistic about their sleep state if they were aware of that! (Just don't tell them there's no breathalyser for sleepiness!)

I read the thread on C+ and felt vey sympathetic to many of the views expressed. But then, thinkng about the way drivers actually behave, I'm finding it difficult to draw the line between culpably reckless behaviour, on the one hand, and "there but for the grace of God go I" fortuity on the other hand.

Clearly it is reckless to drive if you know that you are not capable of sustaining sufficient concentration etc. But there is clearly a grey area. It is obvious that the distance between "fully alert" and "comatose" is a continuum. In practice, how should we expect and require drivers to draw the line? I imagine that no drivers would choose to undertake a journey if they knew they would fall asleep at the wheel during the course of it. It must follow that drivers who may feel somewhat fatigued nevertheless belive (however mistakenly) that they are capable of completing their intended journey safely.

I honestly can't see where to draw the line. I think that probably means it can't be defined so, instead, perhaps we need to promulgate road safety messages that warn drivers of the potential danger and exhort them to take rest when the first warning signs of 'excessive fatigue' appear.

A big problem is that when faced with unrealistically low speed limits I often find myself getting very drowsy, but even if I stopped for an hour and actually slept I would be drowsy again in 15 minutes of ongoing boring driving.

I have never fallen asleep, that I know of, but I have felt close to it at times, usually followed by opening the drivers window and sticking my face into the air stream or doing something else to try and get some interest into the act of driving.

On one particular drive I was sure I would fall asleep if I continued to drive on the speed limit so I bumped my speed up by about 15mph (from 60mph) and I can honestly say that for the remainder of the journey (another hour or so) I was alert and attentive and not in the least bit drowsy.

I figured the risk of being booked was worth it to be able to drive "safely".

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

Indeed... we have a number of signs on the motorways on approach to services .. encouraging drivers to take a break. These are not as frequent as in France and Germany by the way. BRAKE did have one high profile spiel following the release fo Gary Hart .. but all too often this very, very useful side of their work gets swept aside by the speed cam arguments.


We really do need to bring driver fatigue and COAST values to the forefront of all road safety policies if we are really going to reach that elusive almost zero KSI target.

We also need to get across in this era of long working hours culture that the average person does require at least 8/9 hours of beauty sleep too.

I also agree with BRAKE that we also need to ensure that employers and sales reps do not set themselves unachievable targets which ultimately lead to stress and inappropriate driving styles for the traffic and road conditions.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Anyone who says "you know when you are too tired to drive" has never woken up at a set of green traffic lights at 5am halfway through a week of nightshifts.

It is entirely possible to be on the verge of nodding off yet think you are alert and in control.

Tiredness can be a lot like being drunk or drugged, your brain doesn't work properly and you often think you are fine when you are not.

My worst ever moment was on a nice straight bit of motorway, consciously thinking "ahh, I'll just put my head back for a bit and have a nap". That (luckily) brought me round rather suddenly, as it happens my destination was just off the next junction.

Also, a lack of sleep will affect different people different ways. Some can go 36 hours straight and still be wide awake, others can be unfit to do anything after 16. Some people cope with one night without sleep but suffer if they lose an hour each night for a week, others are the opposite.

This is not the result of a scientific study, it is purely from 18 years experience of shift work.

Actually, it is interesting that Gary Heart is mentioned.

That story never "Rung True" for me!

This is as a consiquence of my own experiance of driving landies (Ever other Landie owner I have spoken to aggrees with me too)

Landies have to be "Driven" They are also cold and draughty. You are as likly to fall asleep behind the wheel of a Landie as you are to fall asleep while riding "The Big One" in Blackpool!

I dont know exactly what happened with Mr Heart but the hypothesis that he fell asleep is simply not credable.

My own feeling is that the highway authoritys were scared shitless that they had screwed up by failing to provide adiquate protection for the rail line in the form of crash barriers and they needed a fall guy to take the heat off them!

My brother is a high level barrister (cases in the Lords etc) and, from what he read of it, he considers that Mr hearts trial was a complete travesty of justice!

From my own experiance of Jury service I have to conclude that "Public" defence barristers are generally shite! Set against you are the resourses of the state! and unless you are wealthy enough to hire a decent soliciter/barrister of your own you are doomed! (even if you win against the CPS they take ages to pay up! so even winning is likly to cost you dearly )

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

I beg to differ mate.

All the experiences we have had of severe fatigue in the forces indicates that there comes a point at which your brain is simply unable to retain concious functionality, regardless of arousal state.

There is an argument for a small extension of this period being available through the use of chemicals, but I for one am not in favour of adopting the US strategy of giving anyone operating 'machinery' amphetamines.

Whatever the activity, sooner or later you will fall asleep.

Imagine going round and round on 'the big one' for 24 hours; 48 hours; 72 hours...

Yes, you might last a bit longer in a Landy, but my experience suggests that I'd last a lot longer in a stimulating performance vehicle.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The drone of a landrover is to some, the thing that can send you to sleep on the motorway.

I still think that Gary Hart was sentenced wrongly. Had the road and railway been fenced properly, had there been a better way of stopping trains, or had he crashed at any other other place he would have been given 3-6 points and a fine.

As a driver I plan my jeorney and my sleep. but some times the world conspires to bugger up my planning. Like the time I set out at 7pm from southampton to wolverhampton and arrived at 2am due to crashes and roadworks then had to be on the road with my heavily preggers sister to a funeral up north at 6am. With 4 hours "sleep"

There are loads of travel lodges... (usually all full).

Occasionally I hit a tiredness wall at 3pm
I am driving and I feel tired at work ... Does my boss realy understand that if need an hours kip or does he ring me up 5 times to say the customers waiting?

The Gary hart case was own misjudgement staying up all night on the net. But I have been kept awake by problems, debt, relationships and a windows 98 pc that refused to boot beyond the blue screen of death. Tell me that none of you have had a night like that and then had to drive to work? And work policy that if you are a no-show once in the week then there is no overtime to pay your bills.

Life is less stress full now, but this is how it was for me and can be for others.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Equally important in all this is the part your employer pays in authorising holidays, can you get the extra day you really need to able to get back and then have a relaxed drive home?

As for service stations most have a maximum parking time of 2 hours, possibly enough to put someone off taking a decent break, i know that if i am tired and have a short nap i can wake up feeling more tired then not having had the nap.

this came up a while ago (sleeping at service stations) and I wrote to Roadchef, Welcome break and a few others. Roadchef reponded to say that their car park attendants are briefed to apply common sense and they would not routinely ricket or tow cars with a driver having a "power nap". Welcome break said something similar, I don't thing Moto responded.

Of course, human nature may take over and jobsworth attendants probably exist, but the answers given by the relevant head offices suggest that they would probably cancel the tickets if asked. (probably ... possibly?)

They both said the restrictions were posted to stop people parking all day and car sharing.

I think there would be a massive market for a "£5 all day" car park on certain motorway junctions - just to allow for car sharing. You could probably argue in favour of a government grant on green grounds!

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Totally agree with everything said here. I own a 1976 S3.

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Richard Ceen
We live in a time where emotions and feelings count far more than the truth, and there is a vast ignorance of science (James Lovelock 2005)

earlier conversation on the same subject: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4492

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

so is this the end of my having enough money to beable to live? If I'm not able to do the 140 hrs+ overtime that I tend to do each august, then I'll have to hang up my boots (trainers in the summer) and try something else. Also if the sun is shining and we all have to pack up because we have had a little yawn then that will completely finish off what little remains of agriculture in this country.

There is lots of very important work that gets done by people that have to put the hours in because the nature of their jobs mean that it doesn't follow nice regimented 9-5 working hours.

Imagine calling for an ambulance and instead of then rushing to you they look at their watches and say "sorry, more than my jobs worth, gotta go home". Or your power gets cut off by trees falling in windy conditions like we've had this week, so instead of the guys working their nuts off and getting the power on for you, they just piss off home after 10 hours.

It's no wonder people leave this country when the grafters amoungst us are told they work too hard and are at risk of prosecution.

I still remember when I was in the Army on exercises in Libya a long, long time ago, (before Col Gadaffi actually !!), and we were just finishing a long march to contact, and were lying down low waiting the order to move; it was dawn and I had been awake for over 24 hours. I was most annoyed when I felt a kick and whispered 'what's the matter' only to be told 'Stop snoring', yet I thought I was still awake and was obviously in that boundary between wakefulness and sleep. I am sure this is what happens in a lot of motoring cases. You are not actually aware you are nodding off; after all how would we actually manage to sleep if this was the case ?

In the 70s I used to do the motorcycling National Rally organised by the ACU. This was over a 24 hour period and I really felt very tired at the end despite mandatory rest periods. I always used to book b& b at the final destination to avoid the ride home.

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Good manners maketh a good motorist

No, its about being sensible and realistic. Hard graft is honourable, I've done enough of it in my time, but I've also known when I'm unfit to drive 120 miles home after six long, cold night shifts.

Am I the only one to find this all a bit disturbing?

I've never driven whilst drunk (or even remotely near the limit) because I believe it can be dangerous. When people then start telling me that using a hand held mobile is just as dangerous and so is driving after a 16 hour day, I start thinking...

..."well maybe drink driving isn't as dangerous as I thought"!

Now I don't suppose for one minute that this is the message they WANT to put across and don't worry, I'm not about to try it but having often had to drive when tired and having often used a mobile at the wheel (all in the past you understand!), I am really starting to wonder what al lthe fuss is about!

Nobody has yet mentioned the joys of being a new parent but in our case, we would have been unfit to drive for about 3 months each time we had a kid! - not to mention Mrs. Mole being a junior doctor at the time and having to drive from Rochdale to Preston after a 48 hour weekend on call more than once!

I have fallen asleep at the wheel once and I completely agree with whoever said it wasn't always that easy to see coming. it was not long after I passed my test. Me and two of my mates took my old Reliant round France & Spain one summer. Now that thing made a Series 3 Landrover look positively refined! I had a pair of wedge-shaped parcel shelf stereo speakers glued to the headlining either side of my head like headphones (that being the only way you could hear them)! On a particularly long night stretch in France on their dead-straight "A" roads with a "Flock of Seagulls" album blasting out (ironically, to keep me awake)! I awoke with a start on hearing a squeal from my cousin in the passenger seat. I had drifted on to the hard shoulder and would have only been a few seconds off going onto the grass had she not woken me up!

After that, I had learned to recognise the signs and it has never come close to happening again but it was a good lesson.

Finally, I think there has been a fair bit of research suggesting that noisy, uncomfortable vehicles are MORE likely to make you nod off than quiet refined ones. This is supposed to be because the noise, vibration, heavy steering / whatever is actually just another source of fatigue. A relaxing car doesn't demand as much and therefore doesn't tire you as quickly. (I think it was Loughborough University that did this).

I think though you do know if you have had insufficient sleep though.. and I do know I feel drained after a long travel incluiding airport wait.


I do know from my own past and discussion with MM and the Swiss medics who have all been junior medics working obscene hours in their time.. that the brain somehow gets stimulated beyond nomal exhaustion.. goes into some kind of "overdrive" which perhaps explains why "we cannot sleep or switch off when very busy" or have a restless nigh despite feeling tired and then awaken feeling a bit "unrefreshed" yet feeling able to continue as normal.

Rearing our babies is another one. I think we are perhaps "pre-conditioned" to survive our own babies' piercing squeals. I never noticed our own.. but I do cringe at others.

Yes.. I think our nice modern cars are less demanding and so less fatiguing to keep on track too.

However, this guy.. if he felt as I sometimes feel after travelling home by plane.. with waits .. and so on.. I think he would have felt very travel weary before he made that fateful journey. I know as well as any reasoned person that he perhaps was anxious to get home, believed he was fit and may even have thought the "drive would have revived him". He certainly did not intend to harm Zak Carr.. let's be clear about this.. and more than Gary Hart envisaged causing two trains to collide. But.. common sense should still prevail .. and two hours of fitful sleep on a coach, airport chair and plane seat warrant either a taxi home or just one night of extending the holiday in a Novotel type hotel... basic, comfy and cheap.


I feel very sorry for all concerned .. and I am aware that certain fingers will drum into "for cyclists only cyberspace" ...but I speak from the experience of seeing those who cause misfortune simlpy beside themselves wtih grief, guilt, shocked disbelief, shocked denial,.. when I say that despite the driver's instinctive denial and desire to self-protect perhaps - that he caused such trauma.. when reality and the enormity move to the forefront of his conscience - he will suffer just as much as the bereaved family for the rest of his life.... and to the cycling contingent who lurk.. I would ask them to bear in mind that those who cause a trauma through accidental collision will hurt just as much as those directly affected by their lapse, moment of madness or whatever chance circumstances merged to cause such horror.


I think it wrong to condemn this man as "evil"..

In order to give a more lasting memory to Zak Carr and to return some human dignity to human being who drove that car that day .. we should learn a sobering lesson as to the dangers of driving when we know from sheer weariness that this would not be a "good idea"

I will never dehumanise anyone.. not even those I have cause to arrest for good reason either. Justice depends on cool objectivity after all .. and I learned that lesson after some subjective mistakes on my part following the black hole which engulfed the Swiss family whom I like and respect.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Problem is that little advice is given on the effects/symtoms of reaching that stage - where your head neads more shaking to keep alert /you need to open the window a bit more and miles pass with no recollection. Employers go on glibly on the advantages of travelling outside the "dangerous hours" ,yet how many give out the simptoms -i've done it -as i'm certain many others have, like(possibly) BIB on night patrol ---only trouble is that it's only recognisable once you've done it a few times, and been lucky to escape with you're life.