Safe Speed Forums

yes... until they released the brakes. Looks like a 4x4 so it's not really going to want to change direction suddenly with the backend unloaded.

If the driver braked because of the camera then the camera is part of the problem.

A contributory factor in the form of the camera has been purposely introduced. Lets look at the situation where a farmer, through a lack of upkeep of his fences, allows livestock to access the highway theus causing an accident. He would be prosecuted yet he would not have INTENDED to introduce the hazard!

How is this different? Or is it actually worse because the siting of the camera was intentional?

Looks to me like...

- See camera and brake. Front wheels lock up.
- Driver decides to steer left for whatever reason. Winds on lock. Brakes still applied. Sliding dead straight.
- Driver winds on more lock hoping for steering response.
- Driver releases brake.
- Oodles of left lock suddenly starts working as wheels start turning.
- Turn in violent enough that vehicle tips over its own offside.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I agree with Pauls analysis.

But at the end of the day after all the arguments have been played out, it all comes down to an event occurring because a scamera was being reacted to.
No scamera, no event.

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"Safety" Scamera Partnerships;
Profitting from death and misery since 1993.

Believe nothing- Question everything.

thanks edm for the map the picture is clear

we have the sidcup bypass

we have a 3 lane road merger into a 2 lane (assuming all 50mph sigange is correct nothing visible)
1 junction from the " sports club"

the devil menace camera

a reduction to 40mph, prior to a sweeping LH bend
then a long straight after the bend



no doubt,

but lets say this camare on the dual carriageway has 10 vehicles passing a minute, thats 600 vehicles an hour, 14,400 a day, 100800 vehicles a week

we have one muppet who (IMO from the length of skid, approx 30m) is traveling at way over the posted limit, you dont get skid marks like that dropping from a 60 to a 50



fact 1 and 2 maybe so, but being totaly blunt i hope this muppet learned from this and only his ego was hurt, rather than smashing into the rear end of someone else, but this never happens does it !!

fact 3 as i said above one muppet out of a possible 14.400 vehicles a day hardly the norm

fact 4 of course he was over the limit, the last time i saw a skid mark that long, belonged to a West Ham fan after the FA cup final (thats a football game)

fact 4 whos putting spin on anything, just putting some different views on the facts available


[quote]DeltaF

We want them and you OFF them, now.[quote]

you have more chance of Liverpool (thats a football team) reaching the FA cup final this year

as for me i have not worked in the van for a while now, but i saw enough when i was to realise the standard of driving in general in this country leaves a lot to be desired

different angle when you dont know all the facts isnt it

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now retired

I can't tell what that vehicle is... If anyone can, might it have Electronic Brake Assistance?
EBA is all well and good in an emergency situation, but if you suddenly see a camera you weren't expecting and have to get rid of some speed 'just in case' you can so easily trigger the EBA system, and the first time you do so it is very confusing.

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Andrew.

doubtful it would have that without abs.

But you do get skidmarks like that when dropping speed to well below 50, not impossible given the clear panic of the driver, as he is doing so looking where he is going instead of watching the speedo (itself subject to lag and over-read); hence likely scrubbing off much more speed than needed.

From my examination and correlation to Google Maps, of the skidmark length and travel from the photo, it is my opinion that the vehicle was doing at least 60mph prior to panic braking (based on HC [not unreasonable considering the wheels were clearly locked] and 52m of visible mark; I cannot see where the skid mark starts so this length may be greater - leaving enough momentum for a grass skid and roll). Not unreasonable considering the road used to be a 70.

So one muppet out of 14,400 causes a crash because of a camera. Given any piece of road, which muppet out of how many causes a crash for no reason, Paul, figure please?

Lets be blunt, if any muppet out of whatever many number has an accident because a scamera is there, then it is one accident that would not have happened if the scamera wasn't there. D'uh.

Personally, I think we should all listen carefully to ed_m, we clearly have an expert on crash analysis in our midst, let us all absorb his pearls of wisdom...

Umm... not an easy figure. One possible is average km per crash caused.

With about 3 million crashes annually (200,000 injury crashes) and 500 billion vehicle km, we have one crash caused per 170,000km or 105,000 miles average.

But risk isn't evenly distributed. There are some dodgy folk out there with at least 100 times the average crash risk - drivers of stolen cars for example. These folk greatly increase the average risk such that a median driver probably causes one crash (not one injury crash) per 500,000 miles.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I've also discovered why he was winding on left lock - he was tending to slide towards the central reservation. It's actually quite clear that he was drifting right if you examine the skid marks.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Your scenario's plausible, Paul, but I wonder why no ABS. I thought it was almost universal on all 'recent' cars and that one looks newish.

That seems to be the case at first glance, but IMO extrapolation of the right hand skid mark would not have lead to the track continuing off road; from that angle it could be deceptive either way (I couldn’t pass judgement on the left hand mark but there does seem to be some trend to the right).

What puzzles me is why the end of the right hand skid mark (swooping left) is just as thick as the straight part; it would suggest that the driver hadn’t actually released the brake, at least not enough to cease the wheel lockup. Even stranger: the left hand mark seems to abruptly end before the mysterious swoop left; there’s not even a faint line. According to the photographer there was no debris on the road.

Thoughts?

Distraction effect. Can happen to anyone and usually at the worst possible moment.
Scameras create a distraction effect. How much more evidence do you scammers require of your negative impacts on the safety of the travelling public?



Whats that got to do with a negative reaction to a scamera hazard that has no safety function?





You work/ed for an organisation that makes a living off of spinning fictions into facts. Remember the "one third lie"?......just putting some different views on the available facts........







Thats because you people have no conscience. Fine. Do it the hard way. How many dead and injured is enough until you people understand that road safety has a lot more to it than sticking a static up or hiding in the bushes in a non descript van? 3000/year? 100,000/year? More maybe? While the scammers keep playing at road safety, people keep dying as a result of resources being misappropriated and concentration on a minor caustional aspect.
Stop playing with peoples safety, get rid of speed cameras and get a proper job.
So far the tally is "Safety camera partnerships" 0, Dead and injured 15,000. Great score lads, keep it up.





And of course your organisation has vastly improved driving habits and saved countless lives............"fatals Up"....



Spoken like a true scammer.
You dont HAVE all the facts though, and neither do we.
One "fact" you cant dispute; The scamera was a contributor to the "incident"(scammer terminology for an accident).
Its supposed to be a "safety" device...roflmao!
The angle remains the same.

_________________
"Safety" Scamera Partnerships;
Profitting from death and misery since 1993.

Believe nothing- Question everything.

I think that an assumption has been made here that the reason for the braking was the camera - this is not necessarily the case.

A work colleague of mine rolled and wrote off his car on a dead straight DC in dry conditions at night because a fox appeared in front of him and he instinctively tried to emergency stop and avoid it - causing a similar looking accident to this one. As the policeman that attended the scene pointed out, he should have braked less to retain control and then pulled over to take the bits of fox out of the radiator.

Assumption are dangerous things, and assuming that the braking was due to the camera could make this forum look rather silly.

too late for that.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Oh yeah. The right front wheel exchanges max braking for max cornering when the brake was released. The left front wheel is going airborne.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Nah. No one is saying that they actually know what happened, but we all know what happened. If you asked me to bet - I'd go for at least 10:1 - (not certain if I'm getting betteing terms right here - I mean I'm at least 90% confident of the probable explanation).

The evidence is perfectly clear, but naturally not beyond doubt. The degreee of assumption is reasonable and justified. In a court of law it would be wild - but this isn't a court of law and we're perfectly entitled to draw reasonable conclusions from photographic evidence.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

excuse me ?

Agreed. So how exactly will cashcams achieve driver improvement?

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus