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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 15:31 
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A FATHER of four's car was crushed after police wrongly accused him of driving without insurance.

Officers stopped Steven Booth's Peugeot while he was driving to work in Blackburn Road, Bolton.

They told him that according to their database he had no insurance and made him get out and walk, leaving his car parked at the side of the road. Police then arranged for the car to be towed away.

Because Mr Booth and his family could not raise the £105 fee for it to be released from the compound within the specified 14-day period, it was crushed.

Yet the car was fully insured by the AA. Now Mr Booth and his family do not have any transport.

He said: "I did nothing wrong - but they crushed my car."

Mr Booth, aged 36, of Trafford Street, Farnworth, was stopped at 2am on January 8 as he was driving to work in the car, for a night shift delivering fruit and vegetables.

His wife, Rachel, took the AA insurance certificate to Farnworth Police Station at 12.30pm the same day.

Mrs Booth was given a form to claim back the car from HM Recovery in Horwich.

But when Mr Booth heard about the £105 charge, he refused to pay - and for each day the car was in storage, the bill went up an extra £12.

Police patrol cars are fitted with a camera linked to the DVLA database that can instantly tell officers from the registration number if a vehicle is being driven illegally. Police use Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) technology which checks the DVLA and the Motor Insurers' Information Centre.

Mr Booth says he told the police officer who stopped him that he was insured.

"The police's attitude towards me was unbelievable. They said I might have cancelled my payments, in which case they would charge me with deception," he said.

"I asked if I could produce my documents later in the day, but they said my car would be towed away and I was left stranded and had to walk into work."

Mr Booth now pays £7.20 for a taxi to work every day and £1.55 for a bus journey home.

Ian Crowder, head of insurance public relations at The AA, confirmed Mr Booth was fully insured.

He said: "We think the police are behaving in cavalier fashion.

"Mr Booth was fully insured and was paying by instalments. His insurance was automatically updated on January 4.

"As far as we can tell he is not in the wrong and he and his family have lost out. We will be investigating this case."

A spokesman for HM Recovery, at Horwich Business Park, in Chorley New Rd, confirmed the car had been disposed of but claimed Mr Booth had signed a disposal notice. Mr Booth denies this.

He said: "I have not signed anything."

A police spokesman said: "When conducting investigations into whether vehicles are legitimately insured, GMP officers do not solely rely on the motor insurance database for verification. This is because it is not the responsibility of police forces to update the database and on occasions it can be inaccurate.

"An incident where a car was seized in Bolton on January 8, 2007, has been brought to the attention of officers.

"The circumstances surrounding this seizure will now be fully investigated to establish whether or not the seizure was lawfully made.

"In 2006, 41,000 vehicles were seized by GMP officers in relation to insurance and licensing offences. Subsequent investigations showed only two of these vehicles were unlawfully seized."

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“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


Last edited by anton on Mon Feb 05, 2007 15:58, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 15:41 
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My God. Why on earth would they even consider charging him the fee once it became clear it was a mistake? They should have paid him compensation.

We need serious answers here fast.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 15:51 
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The UK is Bol@#@$ed :(

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 16:03 
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I rushed out a PR:

PR442: Crushing incompetence

news: for immediate release

According to news reports, Police crushed a fully insured vehicle because their
database was wrong.

Commenting on the case, Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety
campaign (www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "It had to happen - it was just a matter
of time - and it hasn't taken very long. Policing requires a human touch and
cannot be successfully carried out by cameras or computers. Technology makes a
great servant, but a cruel and incompetent master."

"British policing has long been regarded as the best in the world - but is
becoming an international laughing stock. Sir Robert Peel must be turning in
his grave."

"Is the Home Office responsible for these changes and this blunder?"

<ends>

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 16:10 
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Zamzara wrote:
My God. Why on earth would they even consider charging him the fee once it became clear it was a mistake? They should have paid him compensation.

We need serious answers here fast.


No doubt it's due to the fact that the vehicle removal and storage was contractorised, and therefore not under the direct control of the police after they had initiated the removal.

Businesses that profit from people's misery in this fashion make my skin crawl, but their distatefulness is compounded to my mind by the imperious and inflexible manner in which they deal with people. I place these 'removal and storage' companies in the same group as clampers and private traffic wardens. How they can be contracted by a public institution and get away with charging £12 per day for parking a car on some fenced-off scrubland is beyond me. I can park all day in a secure car park in most town centres for less than that.

Yes the police got it wrong, yes there should have been no charge, return of the vehicle and an apology when the mistake was realised, but I don't place the blame entirely on the officers involved: If public bodies intend to contract 'civilian' organisations to conduct aspects of their official business then it is their responsibility to ensure that these companies are capable, and will deal with 'customers' within the same ethos as they themselves.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 16:14 
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RobinXe wrote:
Zamzara wrote:
My God. Why on earth would they even consider charging him the fee once it became clear it was a mistake? They should have paid him compensation.

We need serious answers here fast.


No doubt it's due to the fact that the vehicle removal and storage was contractorised, and therefore not under the direct control of the police after they had initiated the removal.

Businesses that profit from people's misery in this fashion make my skin crawl, but their distatefulness is compounded to my mind by the imperious and inflexible manner in which they deal with people. I place these 'removal and storage' companies in the same group as clampers and private traffic wardens. How they can be contracted by a public institution and get away with charging £12 per day for parking a car on some fenced-off scrubland is beyond me. I can park all day in a secure car park in most town centres for less than that.

Yes the police got it wrong, yes there should have been no charge, return of the vehicle and an apology when the mistake was realised, but I don't place the blame entirely on the officers involved: If public bodies intend to contract 'civilian' organisations to conduct aspects of their official business then it is their responsibility to ensure that these companies are capable, and will deal with 'customers' within the same ethos as they themselves.


Very good points, and I agree that a test of reasonableness must be applied at every stage.

However I still think the 'root' failure here was in the Police trusting an incorrect database.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 16:15 
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RobinXe wrote:
Zamzara wrote:
My God. Why on earth would they even consider charging him the fee once it became clear it was a mistake? They should have paid him compensation.

We need serious answers here fast.


No doubt it's due to the fact that the vehicle removal and storage was contractorised, and therefore not under the direct control of the police after they had initiated the removal.

Businesses that profit from people's misery in this fashion make my skin crawl, but their distatefulness is compounded to my mind by the imperious and inflexible manner in which they deal with people. I place these 'removal and storage' companies in the same group as clampers and private traffic wardens. How they can be contracted by a public institution and get away with charging £12 per day for parking a car on some fenced-off scrubland is beyond me. I can park all day in a secure car park in most town centres for less than that.

Yes the police got it wrong, yes there should have been no charge, return of the vehicle and an apology when the mistake was realised, but I don't place the blame entirely on the officers involved: If public bodies intend to contract 'civilian' organisations to conduct aspects of their official business then it is their responsibility to ensure that these companies are capable, and will deal with 'customers' within the same ethos as they themselves.


Why couldn't the police have ask him to produce his insurance at the police station like as it used to be?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 16:36 
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Although officially one is required to carry one's documentation, it is established that producing at a police station within 7 days is equivalent to this; yet we now have police confiscating cars at the scene of a stop.

I can see that the latter is necessary in order to catch out those who are the real problem, the don't-care uninsured and unlicensed - but if that's going to be the case, then we need a concrete system of insurance tracking either electronically and/or in the form of a physical insurance disk for windscreen display, and a requirement to return this in order to get a refund on insurance.

Are there any statistics on how many people actually in practice take out insurance and then cancel it so as to have an insurance certificate to show the police? I can't believe it's very many, surely most are completely 100% uninsured, un-MOTed, unlicensed?

At the moment, it's getting messy.

Ian


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 16:46 
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If the police contract out the storage then they are responsible for the behaviour of the contractors. If the contractors won't release the vehicle after a mistake, then the police must be made to pay for the release, or find contractors who will co-operate.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 17:17 
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Ian M wrote:
Although officially one is required to carry one's documentation, it is established that producing at a police station within 7 days is equivalent to this; yet we now have police confiscating cars at the scene of a stop.

AIUI, the BiB believe the database above the production of an actual certificate of insurance - because the insurance company could have revoked the certificate.

BTW, who was it who said that this couldn't happen when the subject of S165 seizures and mistaken insurance status was first mentioned on this forum?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 17:28 
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http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... t=seizures

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Christ, there's no pleasing some people. If your car's insured, it will be on the insurance database. If you've got a licence, then it will be on the DVLA Database. Both can be checked instantly.
If you've got a licence and insurance, then you've got nothing to worry about. We've seized loads of cars, including some expensive ones. Anything that gets these types off the road is bonus. And a vast number of un-insured drivers also happen to be active criminals. But then again, we don't do anything about them, do we!

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 17:31 
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Does this system also give the registered keeper and address?

The chap could hopefully produce ID of some kind to confirm his name and address (asuming it matches) so why not just use a producer?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 17:35 
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anton wrote:
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5687&highlight=seizures

quietlife (police officer)
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Christ, there's no pleasing some people. If your car's insured, it will be on the insurance database. If you've got a licence, then it will be on the DVLA Database. Both can be checked instantly.
If you've got a licence and insurance, then you've got nothing to worry about. We've seized loads of cars, including some expensive ones. Anything that gets these types off the road is bonus. And a vast number of un-insured drivers also happen to be active criminals. But then again, we don't do anything about them, do we!


Well, that blew that one out the water, I wonder if he's changed his mind?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 17:36 
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So if the computer says "NO". Your insurance certificate, which is your only proof of insurance may not be accepted, because some people cancel and keep the certificate. Will the police phone your insurer?

How can they use a data base which could be inaccurate to enforce the law.
What happen to innocent until proven guilty, and reasonable doubt?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 17:40 
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ree.t wrote:
So if the computer says "NO". Your insurance certificate, which is your only proof of insurance may not be accepted, because some people cancel and keep the certificate. Will the police phone your insurer?


But surely if the police are linked up with this database they can check there and then if your insurance or other requirements are in order?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 17:47 
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Dixie wrote:
But surely if the police are linked up with this database they can check there and then if your insurance or other requirements are in order?



:?: perhaps I am confusing myselve


anton wrote:
They told him that according to their database he had no insurance and made him get out and walk, leaving his car parked at the side of the road. Police then arranged for the car to be towed away



Ian M wrote:
Are there any statistics on how many people actually in practice take out insurance and then cancel it so as to have an insurance certificate to show the police?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 17:57 
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One might think that he has such a watertight case for proceeding against both the Old Bill and the torage company that he simply can't lose any claim for damages and costs.
Let's hope that he can find the support (financial) to proceed with this claim and show them up for the fools they really are.
I wonder if his insurance covers him for legal expenses in respect of his vehicle. Alternatively, since it was, effectively, stolen, maybe he'll claim under the theft cover. Clearly it was taken without the owner's consent and destroyed, which is illegal.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 18:03 
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What would be the situation if you refused to leave the car, drove away and then produced the documents anyway?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 19:05 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
What would be the situation if you refused to leave the car, drove away and then produced the documents anyway?


Can you refuse the reasonable instructions of a police officer?

The real problem is stated above. Blind reliance on the accuracy of technology - like the Gatsos (with questionnable calibration). So, am I to believe that your Certificate of Insurance is now insufficient proof of cover? If you apply this logic, any paper documents you have are worthless.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 19:45 
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Been there, done that.
My m/cycle is insured, but taxing it online is not possible because the computers say it isn't insured.
I've got a certificate of insurance, but the police don't accept these because you may have cancelled the insurance !
But the post office does, so it gets taxed.
But if I get stopped, the check will say that there is no record of insurance !


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