Safe Speed Forums

Crime rates are rising....or falling....or rising.....depending on what you want at the time of the question.
More laws = more crime.
The gov wants less crime, so it makes more laws.
This doesn't alter crime rates, largely because criminals don't obey laws anyway.
It also makes more people criminals...
From the govs perspective, if you make a law people obey it.
The poor dears haven't quite got around to life yet.
Maybe someone should get them to make a law requiring criminals to commit suicide ?
They may get the message when nobody kills themselves.

so in a nutshell, you are saying that it is ok to kill people providing you stick to the speed limit. very constructive

take this on board for your own good.

speed in itself does not kill anybody. it is the actions of people that kill other people. the speed whether legal or not is related purely to the level of injury. it is no more than a contributary factor!

_________________
Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

An averagely decent but basic family car can cost upwards of £14K. Months later .. this has depreciated sharply.. so dead asset in real financial terms. So no.. I would notsay "cheap" .. but at similar price to four years ago.. so not increased in price .. but not exactly dropped in price.

I suggest you spend a bit more time in car showrooms

Add the punitive cost of insurance for these vehicles which have risen by 25% this year - probably due to unrealistic repair bills from "insurance only engineers" and claims for non-existant personal injuries as well on the part of some.. .. we are talking severely high running costs. It is not just the cost of the car when new.. but the soaring servicing and insurance bills.

I have a large family.. If I decided to use Smarts instead.. I'd need a fleet of them and all five qualified drivers (three of our kids plus selves) would have to drive to ferry our younger ones on holidays and family trips and shopping trips. We would end up burning far more C02 gases as a result of this.. and these little cars would take up more road space as well - causing more congestion.

Thus.. I will continue to drive my Jag Estate version which if driven properly is fairly fuel efficient and transports a large family complete with child seats in comfort.



Actually .. I think you will find the zone has extended.. per the letter in CW which IG posted up in Cycling section ...

I would not vote for anyone who claims not to be racist .. yet made highly unprofessional and inappropriate comments of a racist nature when that person disagreed with him

Manchester's congestion charge plans are Pay as You Go. My brother and two sisters live in the middle of this corridor. At the moment Jazz and Julie wait up to one hour for a bus into Manchester and indefinitely for a train. This costs £8 return and perhaps one free ride if they buy a weekly ticket. Not exactly convenient then.

Also .. Manchester has a number of different bus companies. Not so long ago .. they gridlocked they entire town in some kind of surreal bus war where they all vied for the few customers willing to pay for these overpriced fares on dirty buses driven by absolute maniacs.

There is no Park and Ride scheme. I will admit to being very impressed with Canterbury when we stopped to take our kids to see the Cathedral on the return from one holiday. I parked up and entire family rode into town on a nice CLEAN bus which arrived every 20 minutes for a £2 fee. for parking and riding.

Now.. if we had more of those.. at strategic spots ... using derelict land and defunct engineering companies long since liquidated and as standing sad and depressingly delapidated ruins... then people may be more than happy to use these into town.

But .. we pay Council Tax.. and this cash should be used for providing these services and not funding some "factoid" finding jolly into gay facilities abroad



Which has risen.. for average family cars .. quite sharply in fact

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

A point that really needs to be emphasised, because we have all descended into a highly technical converstion.

Speed cameras do not, and indeed cannot STOP someone from speeding. They simply penalise an offender after the fact. To clarify even further, young chav in his Vaxhall Corsa, with animal stickers in the back drives at 50mph through a 30mph limit. Passes a speed camera, now the question, does he continue at 50mph? Yup probably, he's already been flashed, the nip will arrive in a week or so, in no way has he been stopped from continuing his inappropriate driving.

That is my problem with speed cameras.

But in reality people do separate the capital costs of buying a car, and the daily costs of running one. The latter have undoubtedly gone up across the board. If public transport costs have gone up more, then point the finger at public transport operators.

And lower real costs of buying car just in general mean that people get a better car. If you had a Focus LX before, and get a new Focus LX, it will be better - but you can't buy the lower-spec car you used to have. As I said before, people have a set amount of budget for buying a car, and lower new car prices don't make bottom-end motoring more accessible.


You're not that innocent, are you? VED is fairly trivial anyway in comparison with fuel duty, but the government have certainly increased taxes on the Band F/Band G saloon cars, estates, people carriers etc that you need to cart a family around. Rates have stayed about the same on average cars such as a 1.6 Focus, and only really fallen on very small cars. You can't take two adults, three teenagers and their luggage in a Toyota Aygo.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Many years ago I owned a minivan - got married ,it transported me /Mrs B and all our worldly goods up north.Two years pass, there's me/Mrs B and miss B - we need removal firm to move our stuff, and at that time I had R4.
Fast forward some years - a big Vauxhall ,then a MAXI --to transport mr/mrs B + 3 and dog.
At that time VED was single=one rate.
Nowadays, I'd have needed a MPV ,with the high taxband(or transport my family in what i consider unsuitable - but then we travelled safely - we drove more carefully with family on board.

Point i'm making is that i feel sorry for somone with 3 kids and dog.
To comply with law they NEED a MPV, with higher VED ,insurance costs et al.
Been there - got the T shirt ,but that was in days BG(=BEFORE gORDIE)

Ben stated that after a house ,the next most expensive purchase is a "car"

Can i suggest that the "car" for a lot is catching up with the price of home ownership.

Err.. I live 200yds from A6 (one of the proposed congestion charge routes) and the savings on public transport a okay, so in the spirit of balanced arguement here are some recent prices (I work freelance and use bus/train whenever I can)
Stockport to Manchester std return £4.15 - Weekly ticket £15.30 saving of £5.45 plus unlimited travel on trains in Greater Manchester on Sat and Sun.
Stockport to Cheadle Hulme on Bus 1.60 each way, 7 day Megarider £9.50 saving £6.50. Plus travel on any Stagecoach bus in Greater Manchester (Stagecoach provide the majority of services in South Manchester).

And just for the record I've never spent more that £1700 on a car and that was a lemon! So my next one was £650 and the current one £325.

Barkstar

_________________
The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

Indeed.. they buy what they can afford to and run. The new model will have "features" .. these "features" are excuse to charge up the cost. as well. Price does not come down. It just has not risen in the way it was before. Ist still costing more to buy a car here than in EU though.



Nein... you cannot. You are new jr ricky3578 und I forgot to say ... but like all good felines .. Mad Doc und self produced biggest litter of kittens. The eldest three all drive now... cute little drivers but cost us a fortune in insurance hikes as under 25s. The younger ones? aged 13, 8, 6, und 2 .. und we also foster children as well .. one or two longer term.. others just "shorties" to give parents a break. But we could not cope with small cars .. und we have to pay more VED for the cars which can handle so many at once. We have purchased a people carrier to enable one car able to cope with all of us und our clutter. This mean we have to pay more VED on this .. und on the Jags as well - just because they go a "bit feline" We also have our nice stable Jags und the old faithful fellas which give us much fun in the garage .. as I admit that we are a bit on the wet anorak side when it come to drooling over metal hunks.


But cars are expensive.. und prices.. have not changed in reality. You paid £12K for say an Astra mid-range 8 years ago. You still pay £12-maybe £13K for a mid-range Astra today. More if you want a Sat Nav und a sun roof..

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

You live in Stockport perhaps Liebchen.. I guess because of Stockport.

Sisters-in-law live in the Worsley area. They have mile walk to Walkden where A6 run through. Reason they trundle up there for bus to Bolton ist because more chance of catching any bus going in that direction... whereas if they go to top of road .. still half mile walk .. they face hour long wait for one to turn up should they miss one.

From Worsley to Manchester .. und have seen bus ticket for myself on the No 12 bus (they will not use the 68 as it goes all over "scenic in not so sunny Salford und take over hour to reach Manchester which ist just 8 miles away from their houses) - its £3.95 each way. To Bolton where one of them works .. ist £2.75 on the No 12 und £2.50 on a Stagecoach No 25 - which also go all scenic und the 571/572/574 to Bolton from Leigh und Eccles via Worsley are a "bit erratic" in arrivals. Bolton ist only 6 miles away. With waits .. it take two hours to go there. They arrive in cars at constant 30 mph in 20 minutes.. fully parked up at central Morrisons where one shops in the store und the other legs it to the market und other shops. as this ist only place to park for free whilst you shop und to ensure "customer legality" .. they take in turns with one shopping in the store und the other buying at the local shops und market. Und ist ever so eco-friendly as they as "car-sharing"

The train from Walkden Station (which has the bridge which has had the most lorries getting stuck underneath it .. there are two bridges und one ist lower than the other.. they see the higher first .. judge ist OK .. und get stuck on the second.) .. These also erratic. Apparently supposedly every half hour in rush hour to Manchester .. but do not arrive .. with some missed .. even with Branson running it. Und the train does not go to Bolton either. You would have to go to Wigan und change.. or to Manchester und change und come back on a different train from the other station .. on the other side of town.. Or change at Salford... per this pair. Also expensive .. more than the bus.

They do not have jobs where they travel that much. One teach in Bolton. The other teach in Altrincham. (She has to go to Manchester und then take tram out to Altrincham und then catch a bus to the school.. it take too long... when she get there in 40 minutes on bad day on M60 by car .. )

Weekend .. they shop together und load the car with week's supplies. Or relax with friends, catch up on houework.. A saver would be a waste for just return journeys und if the schools have after school meetings, activities und so on... buses do not run frequently at the time these finish. Und even from the school in Bolton .. one of these women would have to change und wait at bus station where someone was mugged und killed once.




You can get quite good cars at auctions .. not all are chavmobile chucksaways. We got the kids's cars as ex-fleet lease hire .. fairly new at very nice price from one.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

My cousin died when hit at 20 mph. Vehicle which hit was seriously defective.

Man had heart attack und drove into me at high speed. I was stationary in standing traffic at the time. He could easily have hit the police car in hard shoulder warning of the brake-wave queue.

Police could not stop this . but he was there und he got the emergency services out very quickly. He also helped with sufficient first aid to keep me alive as well.

So .. speed ist not necessarily the cause of an accident. Some other factor creates the hazard which the driver at any speed may make the fatally wrong decision. Usually it ist combination of mistakes on the part of each road user as well.


But speed cameras can only ping a registered und traceable driver



We do not want policing on the cheap. These things do not work. The only thing which Steve Callaghan (local SpeedFinder General und also sub-marinated in scamera pee-cee dribbles or "lore und legend" ) said that I would agree with . ist that people manipulate

In other words .. like Pavlov's dog .. they hit brake for scamera und merrily accelerate up afterwards.

What we notice ist that on a 30 mph .. they shave off 5 mph und a further 5 mph to "be on the safe side" und on all others.. they shave down to this same 20 mph und that ist dangerous


In North Yorks (where my big sister lives) und Co Durham (where lieber IG lives) - you see und note both marked (everywhere) und unmarked on A1 mostly. You do not know where they are.. but you know they are lurking or "larking about " as lieber IG call it somewhere.

You do see them pulling drivers as well.


These officers' presence probably prevent a lot of other potential crimes being committed as you just know they are around .. und ist reassuring too.

(They were lovely when I was hit und runned into on that car park last month. Was shocking.. they hit the car und ran away.. it was stolen apparently The police were very kind to me.. und very helpful. They let me cry on their shoulder und gave me a clean hanky.. police issue or tissue ) They also call Mad Doc too.




The police came because I had car in my own car's wing und both cars were not driveable. I also had a small laceration from the jolt und was shaken by the air bag erupting from the sheer force of this hit. They had also been looking for this car as well apparently.

But.. for all the support I have for the police .. I do not delude myself as to shortcomings as to what they "prioritise" und this ist a common complaint per radio phone-ins, letters to press, forum chatterings.. und we all cannot be wrong here..

For example.. shopkeeper near my sister-in-law.. had burglar in his shop. He called police ... they did not turn up until after the thief had absconded with the local shop's tobacco, booze, und cash float in till.

My cousin in Wales.. her lawn mowing tractor was nicked. Police never turned up .. even though she had the b:censored:d on her CCTV supposedly "anti-theft" system

Und her neighbour? His car was stolen und pinged a scamera in Brunstromia where they live.. und it took several letters to convince these pratsters that he had crime number.. crime reference.. no longer had this car und was thus not responsible for its "potential killing spree" when overtaking the stolen lawn mowing tractor


Und even the MAYOR of Anglesey headed up a protest in which he asked the locals NOT to pay the police surcharge on the council tax bills as "service of investigating crime und arresting thugs und thieves was not being fulfilled."



I never believe people who say they never speed .. because roads.. various surfaces .. gradients will inevitably cause minor fluctuations. We know of one person who nearly lost licence on Blackpoo's prom at a constant 34 mph in 2003-ish. You can "feel" the speed to certain limits .. but in areas like LanCASH£££££re .. it has to be more exact.. und ist how they got record invites to Speed Course in 2003 apparently.

I rather think you manipulate like everyone else because you are in flow of traffic which all brake for the scamera in any case. You would have to brake with them or hit them




Lot of people who are pinged actually thought that Miss a lolly concealed by foliage .. und you can be well stuffed


Complacent types who claim they "never speed ever" usually do get pinged eventually too. Then find they "hate" scameras after all

Und you cannot know exactly unless you have origin etc on dash right in line of vision at all times.

Und tolerated level? Lot of people think 10%+2 mean 35 mph ist tolerated .. but this ist where they wrong .. Und some still prosecute at 34 mph where a 35 mph Speed Aware cut off apply und they are low on getting bums on seats



I find that very insulting to police officers who do a very difficult job most of the time und whilst I will BiB bash with fully flexed claws und one poor policeman on PH .. Ach.. I gone und got under his skin each time over unexploded doughnuts.. Ist a long story .. involved a lot of jam

But I BiB bash on the surreal stories which appear in the Waily (ist my kind of rag .. lots of wailings und scandal und I do not have to concentrate on what it say

But by und large.. when I have had contact for any reason with BiB .. whether asking for directions... or in need of help .. they have usually been very polite und helpful. I also see Cumbrian police actually doing some work too as Ernest already point out.



It affects insurance premiums und ist also a quarter of the licence.
So it ist a big deal. Surprising number of people end up at tot up .. und the reps who did the Speed Course told me that the ADI giving the spiel also told them that one ping .. seemed to result in more than one ping in Lancs . but then they cluster them in Blackpoo! anyway.



Actually safe speed ist very often below speed limit. Ist COAST driving. You should try it. Speed Awareness courses mark by COAST criteria und the proof ist on this site.

Und my driving licence ist as clean as date issued .. und since I enthuse und seek to improve all the time.. I also endeavoured to learn more und develop und fine tune this skill as constant.

Und of course I vote for the Monster Raving Kitty Party too..

Youd did ask

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

jr135

I work in health & safety and my dislike of our current policy stems from my experience of a camera partnership:

I pulled Essex Camera Partnership up over the dangerous positioning of one of thier vans and the lack of signage over the A12 at Witham thier responses were:

The cones and signs were put up by the contractor - then bloody well get them back to do it properly!

We can suspend traffic regulations - So let me get this straight you are creating a safety hazard to control a safety hazard, I've never seen that one in any of my safety manuals.

I took photos, e-mailed them to the partnership, they were deleted unread.

I phoned them and had the following tripe from them:

It's academic! Really, the site was still in use and has been since then.

And my favorite - What do you know about safety - I'm a Safety Consultant.

They put the phone down on me at that point!!

I have had conversations with them at a local IAM meeting and again the same attitude. These clowns are supposed to be fulfilling a safety function yet they have put the public at risk, I know of no UK or international legislation, guidance or code of practice that states the way to control a hazard is to create another.

My approach now when I see a site that IMO is dangerous is to contact the local police normally control room or traffic division directly, tell them that a contractors vehicle is parked dangerously, describe location, position etc and then wait for police to attend.

If the vehicle was parked/operating safely I could be up for wasting police time, yet of the three occasions I have done this in all three cases the officers attending agreed it was less than safe and moved the camera vehicle on. Of the three sites one was in Essex, one in Kent and one in Herts.

At the same time as the number of cameras in Essex has grown the number of traffic officers has diminished. We have roads that could be re-engineered to be safer but have been routinely ignored even when the safety concerns have been raised.

I've seen enough to be convinced that this has little to do with safety.

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

It's no good being sarcastic, you needed it to be said to you.





But what difference would it make if police officers were enforcing the law instead of cameras? The punishment would still be the same. What would you say to dropping the fine and increasing the points to 4 or 6? People would get banned much quicker. I bet that would work.





It's just like the prison population going up at the same time as crime going up. It's perfectly possible for both to go up at the same time.





I'm sure you will think differently, but I consider writing "Its that blind faith thing in operation again" an insult. Anyway, it's not "blind faith" when I can see that there are other reasons for the number of fatals not coming down. As well as the number of vehicles on the roads going up, unfortunately the number of traffic police is going down.





Well I do feel the need to delve deeper which is shown by me coming on this site. So let me ask you a really crucial question: why should I trust the figures given on this site more than from any other?





Not because they have seen other statistics that are in direct contradiction then?





But it hasn't been proven not to be. Other organisations give figures which 'prove' the opposite.





Firstly, don't be hypocritical, and secondly, I didn't say anything about "one-third" anything, so what would you have perferred that I said?



But I haven't said anything about "one-third"!!! You are saying that I believe the "one-third lie" when I haven't even mentioned it!





They are fair for drivers. And how does a police officer protect someone, if they're stuck somewhere enforcing the speed limit when it could be done by a machine? But as I've said before, I think that we should switch from spot speed cameras to average speed cameras so that people can't immediately speed up after a single point.





I consider saying "Your belief system is working overtime" an insult. So no, of course I don't see an insult in everything everyone says. Just with a lot of what you say. You really should have a read of other people's posts on this site - you will see that even those people who disagree with me do so in a civil manner. And no, I'm not going to grow a thicker skin just for you.





Eh?





Because I've come on a forum to ask people, that's why! And anyway, I've had every intention of finding something to support my viewpoint (although no doubt anything I find you will say has come from the "pro-scam lobby"), but I seem to have got stuck in an argument with someone over debating points rather than anything else. As I said originally, I'm not a troll, so you need to stop treating me as if I am one.





Well that's your opinion. However, if you're going to persuade me or anyone else, don't you think that it would be better to stop with these comments? They really are not moving the debate on.





Well I consider this an insult: "but thats the trouble with a closed mind, no ability to see any other aspect."



I am capable of seeing the other aspects that people on this site mention!

And I'm not here to specifically prove anyone wrong, or to silence anyone. Please stop being so confrontational. And it's rather hard to get into specifics when I have to spend so long responding to all your petty, needless comments.





Ah, well this is such a crucial thing. I consider it much better for someone to lose their livelihood, than for someone to be killed or spend the rest of their life in a wheelchair. And there is only a risk of losing your livelihood if, not only do you break the speed limit knowing that you can't afford to get points, but that you are you dumb enough to do so often enough to get banned. Additionally, people can claim that they will experience hardship without their car, and this will be taken into account.





Ha! The only reason that I "invite insult", is because you haven't considered other factors for the numbers of deaths going up. For example, the increase in traffic, the (unfortunate) decrease in traffic police. So bearing in mind those two factors, and any others there may well be, there is no reason why any reasonable person should necessarily, whilst not calling it a success (which I don't), call it a failure, abject and total.





Well okay, West Midlands police must be very grumpy at times. Let me know if you find any examples of this happening in London or Surrey.





You just can't stop with these comments can you? You believe that you know it all, and everyone who disagrees with you is less intelligent than you.

I come back to what I've said before: we need many more traffic police. We also need harsh punishments for those who drive recklessly like that - I would suggest 12 months in prison.





Here it is: "This is always where people with your lack of sense fall down on your faces." As I've already said, why can't you be more civil like other people on this site?





Lame and pointless insult again.





To partly come back to your previous post, where have I used "emotional blackmail tricks"?





Let me ask you a very simple question: do you consider someone who occasionally drives at 33 in a 30-zone the same as someone who does 43 or 53? I don't, and it doesn't matter how many times you say it, I certainly don't consider myself a "speeder". That's why I don't see myself as a hypocrite.

As for decrying any counter arguments, all I have done so far is argued with you and it certainly can't be said that you're one to "analyse" something! As for debating "this issue to its logical conclusions", it would seem that for you, all that means is basically saying that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and stupid, and going on at them until they go away!




That's not my definition. You really need to get away from this black-and-white view of yours. Which party do you support again? I really want to know so that I never vote for them.




You know, I've just realised that you didn't actually answer my question from before, relating to what leeway speed cameras give. I've assumed that you do get some leeway. You didn't like me assuming anything, but didn't then tell me whether you get leeway or not.

As for taking serious issue, as I said before, why not actually read more carefully what I say? I don't do what everyone else does, I keep to the speed limit, give or take a small amount. It is your fault if you get done, because you will have been exceeding more than a small amount over the limit. And whether there is leeway on speed cameras or not, they're coloured yellow for goodness sake, why not just slow down? Then you won't get punished! Easy!





It's not untenable, see above.





Fair enough, the example "confused me". But it's still going to be better if a 38-tonner is driving at 30 rather than 45. And I don't consider cameras distracting. The fact is that you need to know what's going on at the side of the road if you're driving through a town as it is. I guess some people just shouldn't be driving.









Well I'm waiting.



You only consider them stupid because of your blind faith that what it says on this site is completely correct.





I'll answer those two questions together. If it's safe and prudent to do so, then obviously it wouldn't be a problem, but you're relying on the drivers themselves to know what is safe and prudent to do. Bearing in mind that many drivers just don't seem to have the ability to slow down for speed cameras, then how can you trust that they will know what is safe and prudent? And how is every driver going to know what every area is like? Additionally, then you have a simple issue of fairness - a young black person, or Asian, or someone with spikey hair, might consider that they were driving at a safe and prudent speed, when along comes the police and seemingly picks on them. And then you have a quality of life issue - why shouldn't the residents of a town or village be able to enforce the speed limit, so that they don't have to put up with cars driving at higher speeds.





Firstly, never having had a speeding fine, I don't know what NIP stands for. Secondly, it's clear that millions of others are not doing just what I am. Do you think that when I say a "few" miles per hour over the limit, that I actually mean something else? Do you think that I actually mean 10, 15, 20?





How about apologising for all your arrogant points, rather than trying to defend them? And tell me, what responses from me do you feel that you have elicited that you wouldn't have got otherwise? I would really like to know.







Well the whole sentence is an insult. Talking about "sitting on my butt" - what have you done that's so much better? How do you know that this "hack" is "pro-scamera" when you haven't even seen the article? Saying that you "can't help me", as if I need any help anyway.

I do wish you could just lose your confrontational attitude. You can't seem to write more than one or two lines without this attitude showing itself. Don't you think that someone as aggressive as you would be the last person who would persuade me to change my mind?





Eh? That's a previous comment of mine. So you're trying to be clever and you're caught out. Besides, you're quoting me out of context.





Oh, please, look up the word "implies" in the dictionary





Again, why do you feel the need to be so confrontational?

That was all a good post.

I'm actually much more of a reasonable and open-minded person than it may appear when I'm arguing with someone who is confrontational. Just wanted to say that.

Your continued insistence of arguing with the one who admit is 'the most aggressive', whilst not actually debating anything useful, doesn't reflect very well on you.

DF, please step back from the brink.

JR, one thing to be very careful of, you have stated several times that speeding is a major causation factor for accidents. The kind of speeding that cameras catch, speed in excess of a limit is only a factor in 5% according to government data.

The figure you stated earlier, 23 or 25% (I think, too many posts to go back) is excess speed for conditions included. To detect this requires a policeman. ASCAMs or GATSO doesn't matter what the technology, ain't gonna stop that.

We seriously need to realise that technology is not a panacea to all our problems, more usually it is the cause of them.

JR135, Thank you!!

Hope you stick around, we have a good bunch here overall.

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

I guess in this scenario up ahead throughout. To change the subject slightly, I think what would be great is if we could all buy cars with satellite-linked speed limiters, so that our speed was automatically kept down. I would quite happily use one.



No I don't accept that. If fatalities are going up then there are a number of possible causes, such as increased mobile phone usage (which has exploded over the last 10 years). Take this comment from the following document:
"A major two-year DfT study of speed cameras across six areas found a 35% reduction in people killed and seriously injured at camera sites, compared to long-term trend."

http://www.pacts.org.uk/policy/briefing ... iefing.pdf



Firstly, I'm curious as to which document you think I'm quoting from! I've heard all sorts of different percentages from different places, so I was just selecting a couple of round numbers really. As for the document linked above, here are a couple of quotes:

"Figure 2 shows that even slight decreases in speed are beneficial, especially for death and serious injury. Research by TRL has indicated that reducing the speeds of the fastest drivers would yield the greatest
benefits in reducing death and injury on the roads."

"Finally, she notes that excessive speed was recorded as a factor in more than a third of the fatal crashes recorded and that the contribution from other speed-related factors ‘will mean that the true effect of speed is
likely to be even greater than this’."

I accept that excessive speed isn't necessarily the same thing as exceeding the speed limit, which is why I suggested a couple of lower figures. A crucial question is this: where do you figures come from, and why should I accept them over what other organisations say?





See above.





Well, good points. I don't know whether enough police officers are discerning enough though.





Okay, I may be a bit biased here, but with everyone racing round my local roads at, say, 50, I would simply be delighted if they were kept to below 30. When I've seen so many cars drive at 50, I would find it very hard to see someone that was doing 25 as dangerous.





But here I'm think you're assuming that all drivers are intelligent enough to know what a sensible cut-off point would be.





I disagree with that, I think that they are saving lives. However, as I've said before, I think it's wrong to have traffic police being transferred to other roles. Another quote: "In the two-year pilot study of cameras in six counties, there were 280 fewer people killed or seriously injured at camera sites than would otherwise be expected."





I see how you can call it a camera side effect, but what I mean is that it means that the police can deal with other motoring offences. And I wish they would.





Firstly, I have to say that I don't know which way round is the 'correct' answer! Anyway...

1. Well I suppose I regularly look at the speedo. But I don't accept that that's a big deal. I probably regularly look down at the gear stick or radio as well. And as cars kept more comfortable, surely you're going to have to look down at the speedo more?
2. Um, well in that situation I guess I concentrate more on driving the car. But I would natually be driving quite cautiously.
3. I'm not sure, I have a feeling I would end up driving faster though, which might not be a problem for the motorway, but would be a problem in a residential area.





I'm not so sure about that. At the very least they are catching drivers who are not paying enough attention (let's not forget that most speed cameras are coloured yellow and at the side of the road).

JR:

Thanks for responding. I have only skim-read and have a migraine lurking. I'll look at your post in a more considered light in about 20 hours. There's food for thought for sure.

DF and JR: I echo Smeggy's request to try not to lock horns here. Both of you have good points to make but it is difficult to find them when point-scoring *appears to be* the principal goal/defence. Can we please call a "let" and serve again with a softer-strung raquet?.

That's unfortunate but I hate aggressive people and people who insult me. I haven't always been treated well in the past, and now that I'm stronger I make a point of always taking people like that on. And I don't see how you can say that it doesn't reflect very well on me, when I have actually been very calm with this person, considering his almost endless insulting comments.

There have been minor comments of use debated, but you may wish (to use that old phrase) to look at who started it. The worst thing that I said in my first post in my opinion was something that was patronising, but I pointed out at the time that it was so, and said sorry.

I apologise again for that.



That would be great. I have to say though, I never intended to spend that much time on this site. I suppose one of my principle questions would be (as I've said elsewhere): how are the statistics used by people on this site arrived at, and crucially, why specifically should I trust them over any from a different source?

As far as I am aware nearly all the stats quoted on this site and almost every other pro or anti group are from government run studies. Different groups have interpreted the same figures to a alternate conclusion.

As has been said before. Go look at the Safespeed web site. Find the studies that are being used and go and read them. Then compare the conclusions arrived at by this site to others.

You may have your position modified, if not completely changed, when you have studied the original material.