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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 15:30 
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The investigation into the Cumbria rail crash found a lack of maintenance of a spacer bar at a set of points was the likely cause. Charges of negligence may be brought.

What is the difference between this and poor maintenance of a road leading to an accident. This never seems to lead to any charges of the authorities responsible.

I speak as a resident if Stirlingshire - the worst council in Scotland - whose roads have been deliberately neglected.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 18:21 
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Here here!

Not one hundred yards from the Police station and county council offices in Kendal is a junction controlled by traffic lights, where the white lines are so badly worn, that they are nearly impossible to see when wet, and difficult in the dry!
Elsewhere, many roads are rutted, have potholes, blocked drains... in fact look generally like a third world country!

If only the public contributed some money towards their upkeep, they would not be in such a state! :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 18:42 
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It probably not as easy to prove, that poor lad callum comes to mind.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 02:53 
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fergl, The one thing that British Rail had, but was of NO VALUE to those that bought it: was it's "safety culture" nurtured since pre-nationalisation times.

The people who lived and breathed that culture were cast aside on privatisation in the rush for profit. Now, the bankers :roll: that run it, know nothing of the complex nature of the industry.

I'm NOT surprised to see these kind of accidents, as are many former railmen.

Has for the roads.........


I travel around 15 miles to work. There are currently 3 roads which I cannot use due to "resurfacing" which is resulting in my journey now being 25 miles...

The reason for this is the time of the year and the "bean-counters" who are trying to "get rid of the money they haven't spent" from the whole of last year...before the financial year end!

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!......Let's get back to the Engineers in control.......and bannish the blasted accountants to the BACK OFFICE!

Maybe then we can get "UK" plc back on track!

:furious: :furious: :furious:


er.....so to speak!.......sorry, :oops:


:D


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 21:44 
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exact same thing that cause the hatfield crash, right? And probably exact same cause- employing subcontractors that didn't know what they were doing but worked for the cheapest tender. And probably the exact same outcome- nobody answers for it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 22:51 
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What is the difference between this and poor maintenance of a road leading to an accident. This never seems to lead to any charges of the authorities responsible.

The press are far more tollerant to road accidents than railway accidents because road accidents are far more common. It seems that the press are very powerful in this country.

Draco wrote:
fergl, The one thing that British Rail had, but was of NO VALUE to those that bought it: was it's "safety culture" nurtured since pre-nationalisation times.

What about Train Protection Warning System (TPWS), On Train Monitoring & Recording (OTMR), the introduction of SPAD alarms, increasing of signal sighting time to 9 seconds (picture seeing an amber light on the road for 9 seconds then further down the road a red light for 9 seconds or not being expected to stop), the withdrawal of older mark 1 stock and the enforcement of Central Door Locking on trains used by the public, Cab Secure Radio (CSR) in Driver Only Operation (DOO) areas and the introduction of more reliable track on renewals (the part of the WCML concerned in the accident sadly not upgraded that recently)?

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The people who lived and breathed that culture were cast aside on privatisation in the rush for profit. Now, the bankers :roll: that run it, know nothing of the complex nature of the industry.

Luckily as with road accidents railway accidents are still continually going down. All small-scare maintenance is effectively carried out by a public company, Network Rail. It seems that in this indicent larger scale work had been carreid out by a contractor who seemed to have forgotten to replace the points.

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I'm NOT surprised to see these kind of accidents, as are many former railmen.

Even former railway men were known for often lounge around for ages, and then when finally the line has to be serverly restricted in speed they fixed faults in a day. The WCML (main line concerned) was handed over with many Permanent Speed Restrictions (PSRs), while today we have fewer, and mainly Temporary Speed Restrictions (TSRs) which are dealt with. The points concerned are unusual given the number of inspections they had prior to the accident.

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as for the roads.........


I travel around 15 miles to work. There are currently 3 roads which I cannot use due to "resurfacing" which is resulting in my journey now being 25 miles...

The reason for this is the time of the year and the "bean-counters" who are trying to "get rid of the money they haven't spent" from the whole of last year...before the financial year end!

Unfortunately poor planning occurs a lot these days.

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PLEASE!!!!!!!!!......Let's get back to the Engineers in control.......and bannish the blasted accountants to the BACK OFFICE!

Maybe then we can get "UK" plc back on track!

A very good idea but we live in a stingey world now. I am unfortunately the same.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 23:23 
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nicycle "It seems that in this indicent larger scale work had been carreid out by a contractor who seemed to have forgotten to replace the points."


Forgive me for asking why that titbit has not surfaced - would have thought that at least one broadcast company would have brought that up - to get a juicy story.
And why none of the industry related newspapers have to date reported this revelation.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 01:04 
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botach wrote:
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nicycle "It seems that in this indicent larger scale work had been carreid out by a contractor who seemed to have forgotten to replace the points."


Forgive me for asking why that titbit has not surfaced - would have thought that at least one broadcast company would have brought that up - to get a juicy story.
And why none of the industry related newspapers have to date reported this revelation.

The points in question lead the track from one set of rails to another, and are used to transfer trains from one line to another in emergencies - they are NOT part of the regular routing system.
Whilst it was monitored by the signal system, it was operated manually, usually to park maintenance locomotives while work was being carried out during major works to keep the line up to standard. This is often carried out at night - a condition where small details can be overlooked even under the GLARE of arc lights.

Many of the Network Rail employees are in fact former employees of the outside contractors who were sub-contracted by Railtrack. Even John Armitt - the Chairman of Network Rail is the FORMER head of Railtrack!!
There is maintenance along this section of track somewhere on an almost daily basis - the only difference is the van livery now says Network Rail, instead of Jarvis!

The initial report states ONLY that ONE of three stretcher bars was missing while TWO were fractured - the REMAINING two. Of these one was said to be fractured during the accident.
There were loose nuts on the track. In this respect it is identical to the Potters Bar accident - where amazingly, it was never possible to identify WHO had worked on the points in question!!

On Wednesday 21st of Feb. a new monitoring train had passed through this section of line, and videoed it. However it's primary function is to scan the rail with ultrasound, and this would not necessarily show up the missing stretcher bar. The video of the track is not routinely viewed, except when a fault is detected by the ultra sound scan.

Draco's point is well made - over reliance on electronic monitoring and less on the visual inspection of experienced railmen will lead to further incidents like this.
We have already had TWO derailments since Cumbria that I know of - they are usually fairly routine - but not usually with the consequences we have suffered here. But unless we redress the balance of experienced men and managers to more youthful employees, then a catastrophic failure is more likely.

It's possible that inexperienced eyes had viewed the points with the missing stretcher bar without realising that something was missing - especially if this had occurred on more than one occasion. Certainly some of the men I have seen working on the line are young and enthusiastic, but not experienced!

The reason the press are less tolerant of rail crashes is because they can score points by making political mileage out of exposing lack of investment in the rail infrastructure by the Government, and mismanagement by the rail authorities. It's a shame they are not more diligent BEFORE the events!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 15:23 
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I use many suburban rail routes and any time at the stations or when the train stops 'on line' I have noticed that rail clamp securing bolts (2 of each) are either missing or loose. It is hard to see if a bolt has maybe been 'built up' with a collar thus making it look like it is raised up more than the other bolt. I've also noticed bolts missing from securing clamps as well.

Is this a case of the 3 wheel nut syndrome on a car where if 3 nuts are present then that will suffice? Where do they draw the line with missing fasteners and is not the case that the inspector of works (if they exist!) will determine that 3 out of 4 bolts is sufficient for example on a securing bar (maybe not now though!!)?

Andrew

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 16:06 
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Well they charge fares comparable with air travel.. There fore they should have safety standards comparable with air travel too.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 16:50 
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Well they charge fares comparable with air travel.. There fore they should have safety standards comparable with air travel too.


Well you would think so unfortunately there is a lot more physical infrastructure on the railways + too many sub contractors working on the same jobs AND far too much political interference. A brand new track needs to be built for high speed mainline operations but this inept shower of idiots at the clown factory on the Thames won't have it; neither will environmentalists. Look at most other countries, they have new high speed links built cross country.

Regards

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 21:56 
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anton wrote:
Well they charge fares comparable with air travel.. There fore they should have safety standards comparable with air travel too.


I think they have now achieved that (per mile).

Ernest Marsh wrote:
Quote:
nicycle "It seems that in this indicent larger scale work had been carreid out by a contractor who seemed to have forgotten to replace the points."


Forgive me for asking why that titbit has not surfaced - would have thought that at least one broadcast company would have brought that up - to get a juicy story.
And why none of the industry related newspapers have to date reported this revelation

I think the Independant mentioned it as speculation.


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