Safe Speed Forums

If it ever happens to me I hope I have the presence of mind to run the bastard off the road and miss the oncomer.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

So the speed limit must be set such that a, for instance, newly passed driver can drive safely at it in good conditions. I could say any learner driver since they have a license though I take it that you mean fully licensed.

We could say, myself included, that the training and testing of drivers needs to be more stringent however it is also quite clear that experience, quite often many years of it, is needed to hone driving skills.

At the other end an older driver may decide to allow for their natural loss of reaction speed by driving a little slower.

You are in danger of equating the ability to drive at the speed limit to being the measure of competence or coming across as rather elitist.

To echo RobinXE above, I believe I know what Sixy meant and basically agree it is just that in some respects the statement is also meaningless.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

I suggest you edit that before a journalist or C+ spots it.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

No, no, a thousand times no!

Drivers who cannot drive safely at a speed appropriate to the conditions should not be passed, end of!

Those who lose the faculties required to drive at a speed appropriate to the conditions should be removed from the roads.

Where the speed appropriate for the conditions and the speed limit are not the same, obviously the lower should be selected.

Whilst to some degree 'appropriate for the conditions and their skill' should be included, there has to be a line in the sand where their skills, or lack thereof, are too often the limiting factor, and by too great a margin, to consider them safe on the roads.

so you think he should opt for the head-on instead???

No, I'll stand by it. We don't do 'pink and fluffy' here. I'll choose the smaller impact and protect the innocent if I can.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I am not disagreeing with you - just thought the opportunity for an out of context quote was a bit high.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

That 'quote was a bit high'!

Unfortunately there's always an opportunity for an out-of-context quote. I've long since given up worrying about it.

But thanks.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

For a given set of road conditions there is a range of speeds which could reasonably be described as safe. The upper limit being bounded issues such as lack of space to react and loss of control, the lower limit I think is harder to define as the risk increases at a lower rate, hazards would include unexpected speed differential and frustration overtakes.

I would contend that any speed within the safe range is appropriate given that by definition a speed within this range is not only safe for the specific driver but the other people using the road.

The appropriate, i.e. safe, speed is not a single figure but a range.

This should all look pretty familiar

Take the case where the legal limit right at the top of this safe range. Something like 90% of drivers would generally drive slower than this speed. This does not mean only 10% of drivers can safely drive at the limit, many may select a slower speed for reasons of comfort or fuel economy for instance, it also does not mean that all drivers are travelling at a speed safe for them.

Lets just say that it would seem likely that there will be a proportion of drivers that are capable of driving at a speed that is both safe for them and within the range of safe/appropriate speeds but below the maximum safe/appropriate speed. This proportion is going to be largest where the legal limit is the same as the maximum safe speed.

The proposed idea as I see it is that all of these drivers should be removed from the road because they cannot drive safely at this upper most limit despite the fact that they can drive at a safe speed.


How about-

Drivers that; cannot drive safely, or do not proceed, at a speed within the appropriate range for the conditions should be removed from the road.

Of course some vehicles, tractors etc., may not be able to reach the minimum safe speed.

Edited because I forgot to actually type the important bit

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Sure, I'm comfortable with that. When I said 'a speed' I intended that to mean a speed of those appropriate, rather than a discrete numerical value.

I think we can all agree that 40mph on an arterial trunk road, single-carraigeway NSL, in good weather, road and traffic conditions, falls below that range.

Yet for HGVs, is the speed limit that applies.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I suppose drivers know, or should know, that so at least they should not be surprised by the speed difference. Most HGV drivers are going to be pushing the upper limit because they are not going to be doing 40mph by choice.

I think the problem is not the slow drivers as such but the followers who either fail to get on with an overtake, bunch up preventing other drivers from overtaking or just do not know how to overtake safely.

The lower end speeds, like the higher end, are possibly not the problem so much the quality of the drivers. Which is where the OP topic comes back in, if they can only do 40 in a 60 then should they not be slowing to 20 in a 30?

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

toltec wrote:
So the speed limit must be set such that a, for instance, newly passed driver can drive safely at it in good conditions.


No , no --a thousand times no - BUT (and shouting now because the newly passed driver should be granted and given priveledges by those of us who have driven for years) , perhaps the green L plate is a good /excellent idea - to let us give protection ,distance and more courtesy to a newly passed driver. (That we would have liked in the days after we passed out test ,thought we knew it all and spent the last few years finding out we don't).
I personally like to see a green L plate -i try to show extra patience/protection / sympathy to that driver , expecting them to make errors - and allowing for them (AND getting fed up with people who don't)

After some little time these ex learners learn to drive as we do ,hopefully passing on their experiences to other P plates - so why do all drivers need to drive to the standard of newbies - it's up to us as experienced drivers to show them a good example - C-courtesy, ETC.
And (Theoretically) this generation of drivers will pass it on to the next ( and then came the superating fungus of speed cameras which eats away at this )

And because of traffic levels, a few HGVs bring everyone's speed down to 40, if they obey the law.

Yes, but we're not discussing any instance which happens to have the number 40 in common, we're discussing '40 everywhere' drivers, as per the topic. These are drivers who, in free flowing conditions, drive everywhere at 40, regardless of other factors which should dictate a higher or lower speed.

I was making an (il)logical point rather than expressing an opinion, the conclusion was played out in discussion with Robin. It did occur to me that it could be the kind of thought process used by people calling for lower speed limits though.

The green P plate does seem like a good idea however I think it possibly gets a response similar to an L plate from too many drivers i.e. tailgating and cutting up.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Speak for yourself! Personally I thought the 'HGV40' parallel was interesting. We agreed that 40mph in certain conditions was 'unreasonably slow' - yet there the bloody thing is - enshrined in law.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

From personal experience, if I was not aware of the 'HGV40' law I would never deduce it's existence. Of all the lorries I see on single carriageways, and I see a lot traveling to the east of Nottingham where dual-carriageways are like rocking horse poo, every single one is either traveling at, or attempting to achieve, 50mph in NSL.

I drove up to Fife from Chelmsford to buy some pyrotechnics, got back yesterday, anyhow, Essex to Scotland was a pretty good drive, the sections I found most fatigueing was friday night about 3-4 in the morning, which I put down to a it's a bad time (as in human 'body clock') and I was on sections of road where I couldn't overtake HGV's doing 40, whilst I could have overtaken 1, when there are three running pretty much nose to tail (something I haven't seen before) it makes it a bit of a chance. so sat until a safe place apearred.

The other time was coming home saturday, same stretches of road more cars than HGV's and again someone doing 40ish with a long line of traffic qued behind, I'm not sure what was worse the drivers bimbling at 40 or the dopes who when the SC becomes a a DC section didn't have the wit to get a move past and take advantage of the DC section, so rather than 10 cars getting past, only 4 or 5 got by.

On the m-way sections where I could get up NSL speeds, I found that it wasn't as tireing as there was enough 'workload' to prevent boredom.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

[quote="toltec


The green P plate does seem like a good idea however I think it possibly gets a response similar to an L plate from too many drivers i.e. tailgating and cutting up.[/quote]


My opinion is that we should be looking at giving those drivers just past the test some measure of protection - aka "p"plates - and as suposedly "better " drivers , ensuring that those "p" drivers get that - after all - it's just a way of education etc.
After all - driver training is by way of education ---lets lead by example.