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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 21:04 
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Big Tone wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Und in any case .. a speed cam did not stop him nor did the fear of getting pinged stop him.

Had there been the constant threat of some lurking cop somewhere .. then maybe this would have deterred the ride or at least made the riding a bit more "compliant und less red misted" - after all he was a 40 year old Papa.

But it could have been that crisis some have over reaching 40 years .:roll: (though this ist now apparently the new "30" with "30" being the new "20" und not being classed as old farty until aged 90 years. :wink: )

IG did say once that his worst offenders on his patch are the born again wannabe hell's angel types :roll:







I'm a born again biker, once my daughter had grown and fled the nest I was able to return to my true love.

As I have gotten older I have come to realise that old age is always ten years older than whatever age I am :)

It's the big 50 next year so I'm after a fast car and loose women. Any takers? :D


You .. jest :rotfl: Und :welcome: I read you.. I like the character which come across to me here :lol: (I also like handy .. I think he has truest sense of humour.. :love: even if he disagree with me und cringe at my spellings :lol: Everyone does :shock: So I have some odd problems ..so what.. I do not notice world stopping over it :lol:

I am happily married to Mad Doc .. a kindred spirit :love:

He blew his grant und took up a big bank loan to buy a Triumph Stag .. which turn out to be investment as that car ist worth some hard cash to a collector und he love him to bits. To me .. he ist a full blooded male hunk of a Stag. Mad Doc regard his cars as sassy female .. und I regard them as sassy male :lol:


But he proposed to me in that car. So he have a sentimental value which outprice his value to a collector as a magnificent piece of British style even if he get a bit heated in a traffic jam :roll:

I really upset my Papa though. I blow my allowance on fastest motorbike of the era when I was a student. :lol: I followed example of my eldest cousin Siegli .. with whom I had a competitive relationship und anything he did.. I tried to do just as well ... if not better. :lol: :lol: :lol:


There ist nothing like it though .. the handling .. the throb of the engine.. the way it respond in instant.. und the sheer power ..

I understand the thrill .. the excitement .. und I also know that it all too easy to succumb to red misted thrills as well. I know .. und some of the lurks may hiss und boo over this confession :roll: .. but as a somewhat naive 18/19 year old und on the twisties in the high Alps .. I did perhaps cause my Papa some reasons to withdraw my allowance to try to teach me a hard lesson of his disapproval. :roll: of my youthful exuberances :wink: (He was absolutely furious when I skied down mountain on my 18th whilst a bit tipsy.. und we will not go into what actions he took over the bobsleigh incident that time .. but both me und Krissi were in a lot of bother for longest time over that one :roll:

But perhaps as well .. our Papa held purse strings und thus some power .. und he was quite awesome und far worse than any gendarme to face over indiscipline und sassy cheek.... but he also respected und expected some challenges to his authority .. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 21:26 
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Icandoit wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Only, mein Lieber ... we do not know how this incident occurred..

Other than we do? We have this from The Times
Quote:
At an inquest into the death of Mr Gibney, it was stated that he had cut the corner on a right-hand bend on a road near Ruthin, North Wales.

He was travelling with five motorcycle companions at the time. One described how he heard the sound of an explosion and saw his friend flying into the air.

John Hughes, the North Wales Central Coroner, described Mr Gibney’s riding as “reprehensible”.

He heard that the motorcyclist had no licence, no insurance and no specialist training for the powerful machine capable of speeds of up to 190 mph.

Mr Gibney was riding a 1,300cc Suzuki Hayabusa when he failed to spot an oncoming Vauxhall Astra in a dip. He collided head-on in a 60 mph zone on the B5105 near Lanfihangel, North Wales, in September 2003.

Mr Gibney, of West Derby, wore a black T-shirt that read: “Hello officer, Yes my car is emarked, Yes my number plate is legal, Yes my tyres have tread, Now p*** off And catch some REAL criminals.”



Und Brunstrom used the T shirt to make a point .. und inferred by pinting out the choice of T-shirt that this biker deserved that nasty death.

He did not deserve that. He deserved a spell in prison.. a nasty punitive fine und some education as well.

But he paid an ultimate price .. his life.. und really violently. He suffered that indignity. He should not be subjected to further indignity in that manner.

If the CC had asked permission from that family und used the image in a more mature und educated und logical manner .. then Mr Gibney would have achieved a redeeming memory to his name und grieving family.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 21:38 
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Icandoit wrote:
WildCat wrote:
It ist called manners und courtesy.

While I agree with you we have not seen that Brunstrom should have asked to use the pictures. I presume they belong to the NWP and he was using them in an NWP event. Would you ask for (say) accident investigation not to use certain pictures for training purposes for the same reasons?





You still have to respect the family und seek their opinion.


I cannot research or use a remain unless certain legal criteria have been met.


Quote:
WildCat wrote:
I was asked if photos of my injuries could be used once. My family refused und we refused on Ferdl's behalf as well. They wanted to use them as a "speed issue".

So .. there are other considerations... as to how such release of data affect all parties involved.

Clearly whatever authority was involved intended those pictures to be released 'publicly' and undertook the correct procedures before attempting to use them.




No. You have to get permission from next of kin if you are to release a photo of a corpse in public .. und if you are a CC .. und you give a press conference.. you know what you deal with.

I do give press releases und answer questions from the journalists. I know I have to be very careful not to mislead or be misquoted. :roll:

Quote:
WildCat wrote:
As it ist .. the image of his death has not helped anyone .. und worsened an already weak relationship between Brunstrom's policing style und his weary subjects in Brunstromia. :roll: und also caused a good working relationship between hard working cops und the public to deteriorate all the more :roll:

Absolutely.


ja.. we agree on many things - I think - Liebchen. If we do disagree on this und that.. we just disagree in absolute friendship und harmony.

I just think that Dick transgressed decency when he held a conference of this nature und expected the journalists to report what he dictated to them at the time. He ist really deluding himself there und ist why we need a really savvy CC in charge und not one with quasi-delusional fantasies of his slef-importance :roll:

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Fine me for Safe Speed
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 08:36 
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WildCat wrote:
I understand the thrill .. the excitement .. und I also know that it all too easy to succumb to red misted thrills as well. I know .. und some of the lurks may hiss und boo over this confession :roll: .. but as a somewhat naive 18/19 year old und on the twisties in the high Alps ..

You don't have to be an 18/19 year old for the brain to disengage and the red mist to descend - that can affect anyone :D Much better to do it on a track day though!

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:57 
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He may have breached Human Rights too

MCN

Quote:
A solicitor representing the family of Mark Gibney says Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom might have breached his clients’ human rights.

Paul Beck, from Liverpool based solicitors, Quinn Barrow said: “There might be a human rights violation. Photos taken from a crash scene for accident investigation purposes have been exploited.

“These were not publicity photos; Brunstrom had 101 avenues to take if he wanted legitimate photos of accidents to show to the journalists.”

“Would Brunstrom like photographs of his children being shown to journalists? The question doesn’t even need to be answered. However, when it comes to some poor unrepresented Scouse family then it’s fine.

“What goes through the man’s mind? He’s devastated a family.”

More than 1000 MCN readers have already registered to call for Brunstrom's dismissal. If you'd like to add your name to the list, then email mcn.online@emap.com, now, with your full name and address

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 15:21 
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One of the survival techniques on our roads is to avoid getting into a pissing contest. I wonder if the two friends Mr Gibney was with were having a bit of a head-to-head on the bikes?

Brunstrom should make an unreserved personal and public apology to Mr Gibney's family. He has added insult to injury.

Brunstrom blames speed like a drunk blames drink. It's how you use it Richard Cranium.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 19:11 
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Big Tone wrote:
Brunstrom should make an unreserved personal and public apology to Mr Gibney's family. He has added insult to injury.

............. Brunstrom should be sacked.

He was touting the photos as an excuse to justify his megalomaniac obsession for using speed cameras to persecute ordinary motorists and bikers who moderately exceed a speed limit when it is quite safe to do so. This case clearly shows how ineffective speed cameras are at preventing accidents.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 19:15 
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BBC News

Quote:
Force faces biker photo inquiry

A police force's decision to show pictures of a decaptitated motorcyclist to journalists without asking the dead man's family will be investigated.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has confirmed it will carry out an independent review into the North Wales Police case.

Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom showed the images of Mark Gibney last week to show the dangers of speeding.

Mr Gibney's family have called for Mr Brunstrom to be sacked.

North Wales Police has apologised to the family "for the distress caused by the publicity", but IPCC commissioner Tom Davies said the circumstances surrounding Mr Gibney's death were "clearly distressing to his family and friends".

"Following a voluntary referral from the North Wales Police Authority I have decided the IPCC will independently review the issues leading up to the road safety briefing held by the force," he said.

"I have offered to meet the family to discuss the IPCC role.

"I will also ensure that they are kept informed of the progress of our review."

Headless torso

Mr Gibney, 40, was killed when his bike crashed on a bend on the B5105 between Cerrigydrudion and Ruthin in Denbighshire in 2003.

A graphic image of Mr Gibney's severed head, lying on a grass verge, was shown to journalists and council officials during a private road safety briefing by Mr Brunstrom last week.

Mr Gibney's headless torso was also shown, as well as the bodies of two young men who died in a different crash.

Mr Brunstrom said he was showing the images to "give the context" of his anti-speeding campaign, but confirmed that permission had not been sought from Mr Gibney's family, who come from Merseyside.

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 21:07 
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First of all .. just to echo IG who called all the medics in the family to make sure of his facts :wink: .. the chap who died in such a terrible way would probably not have registered what happened to him. He would have died instantly and would not have suffered or even had time to register any pain of death. Any last intake of breath would not have reached his lungs .. nor would his brain have stayed alive long enough to even be aware of the sequence of events as described so graphically to the journalists at that briefing.

Now .. the fact he showed these photos to the journalists simply had to be with the intent that they would publish. That is what journalists do - especially when presented with such a horror which could be sensationally reported with some relish added. Journalese.. :roll: After all .. we have all had the headlines of Dr Death.. Evil Nurse.. Fallen Angel ... heartless NHS without one morsel of human caring.. greedy GPs... bungling cops.. "who allegedly could not catch their own helmets let alone a criminal" per some of the more lurid journalism I have seen in many a tabloid over the years :roll:

But Dick Brunstrom.. definitely the "weird one in Wales" :roll: . He knows only too well that the journalists would publish the story and name the guy and may well have thought he had the family's permission to show them these graphic images.. only to find out after the family raised concerns that this was not the case :roll:

"Icandoit" points out that this rider was not licenced and perhaps there was some red mist in that group of riders that day as a collective and even some defiant red mist or buzz in the knowledge that he was riding a bike without having the legality to do so... and this also led to those tragic outcomes we read each and every day in our local newspapers. But the manner of his death was truly awful. Like the Dicconson Road incident I reported in which a young man burned to death and his pal (Twocer and traveller was unlicenced and later jailed)


Some incidents contain a freak sequence of chance events which lead to such sheer awfulness. There was a case the other day on the A56 Manchester area .. per the Manchester press. A Focus hit a bus. The mangled car .. you would think it hit a tree at 200 mph. The photo seems to show a complete disintegration of this vehicle. The driver died. Others on the bus were injured - including the mother of a child whom my sister Ju-Ju teaches.

So.. this incident .. appears to be a freak one off.. perhaps due to sheer kinetic force of one fast moving motorbike connecting with a car which was not itself at a sedate speed.

Could it have been prevented? :scratchchin: I have no idea. I was not a witness to this incident and I do not know the speeds of either vehicle involved .. but the outcome suggests two cars meeting at an NSL speed without any appliance of a brake to me .. or the biker collided with the car at an unfortunate angle which resulted in a very, very awful death for him and a very deep and lasting trauma for the family in that car. Those people.. no one seems to report whether or not they gave permission for the publication of the photos. I suspect not and this press conference will not have helped the other victims in this truly terrible event

But as Wildy's husband .. I will speak out over this issue over publication of horrid photos.


My wife, as regulars know, is one feisty and strong minded character. I'm biased .. but she is lovely in every way possible.. even if a bit maddening :lol: :popcorn: and irritating :popcorn: with her complete and utter "mockery" of the English language :roll:

But I nearly lost her... when a person who was taken ill at the wheel of his car drove into her car at a very high speed. This happened just months after her family buried her beloved cousin, Ferdl, who died when a defective vehicle careered across a central reserve into him and his brother died in a plane crash.

The Swiss family went down a black hole in complete and utter shock at the time. IG was fining anything that moved in a way "he disapproved of" for a while.. and admits he was the nightmare cop of all time for about a month and woke up when his bosses had a "word in his ear and some compassionate leave" over it all. :roll: IG has admitted he was a bit OTT at the time in his policing style .. but glossed over the finer details of his red mistedly personal judgements for a period of about 4-6 weeks. Of course, I was unaware.. my duty and attention was to will my wife to survive, keep a vigil at her side as far as I was able - and also be a father to our toddling eldest and our baby twins at the time.

Some time after this, Mary Williams lost her mother in similar circumstances to Ferdl. She lost her fiance when he inadvertently drove up a road closed for a test drive and died when the vehicle being tested hit him on a bend.

We joined and supported BRAKE in its early format and ethos .. and helped fund initially. We joined because Mary's cause pledged to attack rogue garages and hauliers and ill drivers. This was the stuff we wanted to hear and subscribe to after all. And the charity achieved .. we worked some initial miracles as far as pulling up rogue hauliers, employers.. mechanics were concerned. BRAKE still works wonders in this field and deserves every plaudit for its work in this field and in the PR messages over driving whilst unfit and in its call for a duty of care for employers who hire people to drive on their behalf as far as rest periods and deadlines are concerned.

In this .. BRAKE should be supported. This is valid road safety advice .. which saves lives after all. :wink:

So.. we are not anti-BRAKE or RoadPeace as such... in the poignantly valid areas of their work and mission.

HOWEVER

Speed per se is not the safety issue. Failure to apply a vigilant COAST style and choice of a safe speed for each emerging condition and this safe speed of judgement of that COAST based and very professional judgement of an emerging hazard can mean that the safest speed is either marginally below or marginally above the speed limit of any one road. But in the latter case .. a speed camera could never judge properluy and a policeman can.

Now as far as shock photos are concerned ..

FINE .. so long as the bereaved consent to their use and that this use is tactful and not ridiculing the deceased .. even if his judgement was not as wise as it should have been. You can learn from a person's mistakes objectively and tactfully.. and if the bereaved consent - and I am reminded of the lady whose son broke a law and died as a result of this. She does not blame her son or react in anger.. but goes into schools and just tells other youngsters how her child died .. the grief she feels and she asks these kids not to do as her son did.. as in drive under an influence .. without a licence and with no regard for other people or parents.

I reported her story at the time. I think she had her hands full with a very wilful and defiant boy.. and she was a single parent and struggling to keep the discipline perhaps. But from her accounts .. she tried very hard to control that boy.. and his loss is not her fault in reality. But she is trying to prevent further carnage in her way and does not mention speed cams as they don;t stop boys like her lad - and she deserves respect for her candid and blunt worded efforts.

But .. if Dick had just asked the family if he could discreetly refer to Mark's very awful death in Speed Aware courses - with anonymity .. then I am sure they would have consented to this ..if only to allow some positive to result from their Mark's absolutely awful negative.

As far as the press conference? All horridly graphic photos could be used .. but only if the grieving family had agreed as there would naturally be a tabloid frenzy of reporting. And that is the nub of the argument really.. he had no right to do what he did. :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 22:25 
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Mad Moggie, thanks for the extensive enlightenment.

We are sorry about what happened to the biker, but it would seem he was putting himself and others at considerable risk. That is certainly a matter of concern, but not really the issue of this particular forum thread.

What is really the issue is the behaviour of what would seem to be a megalomaniac and bonkers Chief Constable, obsessed with speed cameras, who should never have been put in the position he is in the first place and he should certainly not be allowed to continue in that position any longer.

He is doing immeasurable damage to the credibility of and public relations with the police force, and to tourism in Wales.

So far he has somehow managed to avoid getting kicked out of the force, as he deserves, but one can but hope that this time he has gone a step too far and will get sent packing, and he should not be allowed to keep the perks for an early exit.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 19:46 
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Dr L wrote:
Mad Moggie, thanks for the extensive enlightenment.

We are sorry about what happened to the biker, but it would seem he was putting himself and others at considerable risk. That is certainly a matter of concern, but not really the issue of this particular forum thread.



Well.. it is in a way. He did not have the legality to ride that bike and I think it was the buzz of that which caused what we call "fey behaviour" on his part. I do not mean the comment to offend the family as I think they might lurk on this site and I can understand and sympathise with how they must surely be feeling over all this .. three or four years after the event..

I have made a post on the PH thread on this topic this morning. I had logged on at work (which I do not normally do) to respond to a pm to me from some pals made on there and on mutual track days. As you know .. I am a bit of a local newshound .. and family members post me links and I buy the "MEN and Bolton" fairly often too -


I do recall a report from the Liverpool Echo some three to four years ago which referred to this incident. Unfortunately I have not retained the clipping so I cannot now scan and post it up. But I seem to recall the name from memory and I seem to have in my memory that the paper at the time simply recorded an accidental death on an unlicenced motor biker - but suggested some culpability by speed and the unfortunate T shirt. Per the report as I think I recall off my memory .. no blame was attached to the other party and they had suffered enough anyway. I admit I am posting from memory .. but I do have a decent memory over some very odd things I read in the papers. I am currently asking around the family in case they kept that cutting and can reproduce it for me...I hope my memory has not let me down on this all the same.

But the initial reporting would seem to have some respect for the victims - so who did what to cause the accident. :roll:

But .. that was then and perhaps it shows how much our society and decency and caring has changed.. and not for the better as it leans to the politically correct and speed vigilante version and not to the common sense values. :roll:

But I try to see both sides and if those directly bereaved agree that a positive should derive from their deep trauma and that their beloved achieved something of merit after his or her death.. whether at fault or not ... then a tactful and humane and considerate respectful use of gruesome images could be used with a positive outcome to all parties and sides of the argument.



But as you rightly say

Quote:


What is really the issue is the behaviour of what would seem to be a megalomaniac and bonkers Chief Constable, obsessed with speed cameras, who should never have been put in the position he is in the first place and he should certainly not be allowed to continue in that position any longer.

He is doing immeasurable damage to the credibility of and public relations with the police force, and to tourism in Wales.

So far he has somehow managed to avoid getting kicked out of the force, as he deserves, but one can but hope that this time he has gone a step too far and will get sent packing, and he should not be allowed to keep the perks for an early exit.



This person did not seek any permission and used a graphic image. It was grossly naive and incompetent to assume that journalists would not report this matter and name the unfortunate father who had much to live for .. but for some reason unfathomable to me personally as someone who tries to be legal but who may inadvertently drive above a lolly speed by a mere margin .. which might be pingable at time :roll: - chose to ride a bike whilst not legally authorised to do so - and I do not know his speed .. nor that of the other car involved .. nor at what angle he approached that car which resulted in such horrific events.

But .. as I posted on PH. Ferdl suffered horrific head injuries. The impact speed was just 20 mph and proven by the tachograph in the lorry. He was in a commuter crawl at the time. But this was a heavy duty vehicle which had defective brakes.. bald tyres .. and a bulge from kerbing on one of them per the forensic reports at the time. But from the photo of the injuries and the description in the coroner's court .. one would think poor Ferdl had been hit at a high speed. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 01:49 
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R1Nut wrote:
Ministers are now calling for his resignation.

BBC News

Quote:
At Commons question time, Labour MP for Clwyd South West, Martyn Jones, asked Mr Hain to join him in calling for Mr Brunstrom's resignation.

Mr Hain told MPs: "I agree this very much with Mr Jones that this episode has caused enormous distress for the relatives of this victim, who were not even consulted in advance about this behaviour by the North Wales Police chief constable.

"I think it's completely unacceptable and I know the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) are looking into it very seriously indeed."


The Hansard reference is: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 2-0001.htm

And the exact exchange is as follows:

Mr. Martyn Jones (Clwyd, South) (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the behaviour of the chief constable of north Wales in displaying pictures of a motorcyclist killed on a north Wales road, without the permission of the relatives of that person, could be considered extremely antisocial? Will my right hon. Friend join me in calling for the resignation of the chief constable?

Mr. Hain: I agree with my hon. Friend that this episode has caused enormous distress to the relatives of the victim, who were not even consulted in advance about this behaviour by the North Wales police chief constable. It is completely unacceptable, and I know that the Independent Police Complaints Commission is looking into it very seriously.

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 02:22 
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Is there anything more irritating than someone who will not answer a direct question?


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 02:35 
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RobinXe wrote:
Is there anything more irritating than someone who will not answer a direct question?


Yeah. Peter Hain. :hehe:

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:01 
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Dr L wrote:
Big Tone wrote:
Brunstrom should make an unreserved personal and public apology to Mr Gibney's family. He has added insult to injury.

............. Brunstrom should be sacked.

He was touting the photos as an excuse to justify his megalomaniac obsession for using speed cameras to persecute ordinary motorists and bikers who moderately exceed a speed limit when it is quite safe to do so. This case clearly shows how ineffective speed cameras are at preventing accidents.
.


Absolutely!

If I screw-up in my job the fact is, if it's bad enough, I will be dismissed no matter how great a job I have done or for however long - and if this doesn't constitute bad I don't know what does!

But let's be real about this, people at his level become Teflon-coated. I doubt whether he will ever truly be held to account for his actions. The fact that his dismissal, or even a personal apology to the family, has dragged on for this long speaks volumes.

When he does eventually go I think it will still feel like a pyrrhic victory. It's all part of this emetic new world we live in where it's good to be bad and you can always bounce back from disgrace - something which didn't happen in my parents day. Evidence abounds of this, Jeffrey Archer just for one...

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Dick's smug face turns up later somewhere, once the dust has settled, and a new broom has swept up his mess.

Even if he falls from office in apparent disgrace, the public 'show' is likely to be very different to the private one. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors, certainly not us. It's become a political football.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 18:41 
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Big Tone wrote:
I think someone should follow Brunstrom and see just how well he sticks to the speed limit everywhere at all times and then shove the evidence back at him, preferably where the sun doesn't shine.


I would happily pay 1% of the equipment & wage costs for someone to follow this pr*ck everywhere he goes with a calibrated speedometer & VASCAR. All I need to do is find 99 other people that would do the same. I can't imagine this would be difficult.

How this guy is still allowed to wear a uniform is beyond me, but I stand by my earlier opinion that he will get what's coming to him eventually.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 00:39 
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antera309 wrote:
I stand by my earlier opinion that he will get what's coming to him eventually.


I hope so - but if he is removed, in all probability the pr*ck will get shuffled off the stage with a big fat pension and probably a golden handshake into the bargain.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 21:36 
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Why do we call for this pillock "Brunstrom" to resign as if he did resign(which I very much doubt) he will go with a nice fat pension paid for by the likes of you & me as taxpayers, when he should be SACKED on the spot for gross incompetence and crass insensitivity to the deceased,s family!!!!!! :x :x :x

He should also lose his pension rights as well as this is what gets the police a bad press when they are trying to get the public on their side and they have to put up with this idiot giving orders he would be better off in the circus where he belongs wearing a funny face and makeup :x :x :roll: :twisted: :twisted:

He is just a pontificating buffoon who should be put out to grass "without the superb pension" he would get if he resigned! :x :x :x

This man is a disgrace to the (probably) hard working officers of the North Wales police force he commands who have enough to contend without trying to carry out the petty minded rantings of this idiot as well :shock: :shock: :shock:

He himself has admitted on radio that he "OCCASIONALLY" exceeds the speed limit so in view of this does he "Report himself for Speeding" :evil: :evil: :twisted: :twisted: :o :o I am sure he doesn,t but his attitude is "DO AS I SAY" not what I do !!!!!!!! :? :? :o :o :evil:

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 Post subject: Hain & Jones
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 21:47 
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A brilliant piece of non-answering to a question, that is why they are politicians and they have mastered the art of giving a non answer so you can,t come back to "quote" what they said ! :roll: :roll: :roll:

They haven,t even got the courage to stand by their convictions and ask for his immediate removal / suspension followed by his instant dismissal! :x :x

Obviously I am surprised the people at "Brake" have not decided to get involved in this debate about "Excessive Speed " as they are the kind of people that this idiot "Brunstrom" likes to be supported by ! :roll: :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 19:34 
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:gatso2: Here's a slightly different slant on gruesome images.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 528240.ece

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