Safe Speed Forums

Breaking it down: the Police officer will be trained to a high standard so their travelling at high speed must be safe otherwise this practice would not be part of the police training. Given that, any comparison to the biker's case is (legally) invalid as he has not been trained in the art/craft of travelling at above the speed limit (not nearly the same as 'going fast').

Did wonder if hand signals had gone out of use -but no -still in HC - so as steve_k says - any HS not in HC is defined as careless/dangerous

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Because it is flawed and doesn’t add anything to the debate………

I can't actually remember what the question was, but that certainly sounds like a nice cop-out from you........




Not these days – no, simply because of the large-scale deception brought about by those tasked with making the roads safer.

Well then you have to understand that it makes it rather hard for me to accept that you genuinely care in road safety. It seems to me that you, and others on this site, take the view that you should be able to drive however you like, and it's safe then good, but if not, then it's the fault of speed cameras, the police, the courts, the authorities, the EU...




We really are going round in circles here and it's very tedious. You could condemn him if you based it on the jury finding him guilty. But if you're not going to accept what the courts say and ever condemn anyone for careless driving, then I cannot possibly accept that you or the vast majority of people on this thread really care about road safety. I think your automatic reaction, like most people on thread, is to defend a motorist no matter what they're convicted on.

And please, I'm sure that you will disagree with some or all of the above paragraph, or find logical flaws, but I've written more than enough posts on this subject now so you will just have to go away feeling pleased for yourself...


Errrm, yes ‘we’ are (or at least were before you interrupted).

It's alright now, you can stop putting the word we in inverted commas...

I believe it was you who used the word ‘speculation’.

Yes.

What evidence do you have that the jury were right on this?

Let's face it, it's rather irrevelvant at this stage, considering that you have said that you simply don't accept what any jury says. The fact is is that you're not actually interested in road safety. You're just interested in driving however you feel like.

Are we not free to discuss using the info available?

Of course you are. What is your problem? But don't keep saying that I have made some rubbish case of showing his careless driving when I have never tried to do that.


I have already answered yours; granted I gave you a legal definition but I agree with it.
That’s rich coming from you! How about you answer mine which came first.

For goodness sake, what was it? I mean really, what is the point of this? You and almost everyone else decided almost before they knew anything about this case that this person was innocent. It's simply a lie to say that you care about road safety. What you care about is driving how you want, especially if the evil Nazi authorities dare to get involved.


Then answer this: is exceeding the speed limit, looking at a road sign and changing gear considered as ‘careless driving’? If not then what is the difference?"

In my personal opinion, I would say that doing all three at the same time, certainly is careless driving. Whether or not that is what actually happened in this case I don't know.

So what were you referring to when you said “this is only speculation.”.

My god, you must think that if you endlessly nitpick, then eventually you will 'win' the argument because I will get fed up and disappear. You're just like DF, except that his tactic is to endlessly be abusive, aggressive and confrontational.

Well you're right, you will 'win' the argument. You go and give yourself a big pat on the back.

Also, your very next sentence:



Yeah, show us where he looked at the camera and raised his arm while at 105mph

Yeah, show me where I said he had. And for crying out loud, do you still not understand that all you've seen is a short article and photo? When will that sink in?



So why do you keep referring to the intelligence of the rider?

I don't "keep" referring to the intelligence of the rider. Firstly, you may like to know that it wasn't in fact me that first mentioned it on this thread. Secondly, the intelligence of this driver would have been something that the jury would probably have subconsiously taken in. Anyway, get over it.




Er, the point is that all we've seem is a short article and photo. My god, you really don't like people to be found guilty of careless driving now do you. Which, as I've said before, brings a lie to the idea that you genuinely care about safe driving.


Actually, I said that no-one was defending the biker’s speed (my first post in this thread), which was in reference to your comment of ‘speed’ in your first post. The difference is significant.

Er, whatever. I wasn't actually commenting on the speed but the careless driving, but nevermind.


Let’s recap: you keep asking ‘us’ why we don’t condemn the reported actions; we give justification as to why ‘we’ can’t whilst prompting you as to why we should from the available information describing the actions of the rider – it is us who have repeatedly sought for you to argue for the charge of careless driving. You cannot justify why the action should be deemed as careless, so how can we?[/quote]

I HAVE NOT TRIED TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many times do I have to say it?????????????????

Please almighty god give me strength.

Look Smeggy, this argument is a complete waste of time so I will probably not reply to any more posts. All you wish to do is ignore any pertinent questions that I can out with, whilst insisting that I always answer all your, rather irrelevant questions.

Like DF, you wish to ignore what I actually say and conduct your own argument. You first spoke about straw man arguments, but I think that pretty much all of yours and DF's arguments have been straw man (or trolling).

All the way through this thread the same underlying argument has been coming through. Not only should it not matter at what speed people drive, but it also shouldn't matter how they drive. You might not say it in as many words, but let's face it guys, that's the situation.

And yes, as anyone does when they are caught out, they lie. I expect nothing less of people on this thread. But let's face facts: I very much doubt you have managed to persuade a single neutral person with your trolling and point-avoiding, so although you might well feel that you have 'won' this argument, you won't have persuaded a single neutral person. And the status quo is on my side. Oh, one final point: would people on this thread at least try and recognise how mind-boggingly arrogant some of you are.

That depends on what the one finger is pointing at if its another road user thats ok if its a box on a pole your in trouble

You've stuck your finger right on the button

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

A new safety scheme has been anounced to stop motorcyclists riding one handed while traveling at high speed, this new safety scheme will involve large cracks and pothole on all roads in the uk so any motorcyclist who dares to reduce his grip on the handlebars will be thrown off his bike.

The speed camera partnerships will love this idea as it will reduce the dangrous act of flicking two fingers up to cameras the savings in police time and money will be massive not having to look for these criminals as they can now just scrape the criminal of the road

Thats a pile of hogwash and you know it.
The numerical speed is the problem in modern "road safety" practice as theres an entirely unhealthy focus upon it as a source of causation.

The second part of what youve written is exactly the point, it matters very greatly HOW you drive.
Far too many people pay no attention to any part of their driving practices, in fact they display total indifference and unprofessionalism every time they get behind the wheel, yet theres so little attempt to address that part of the equation, and you wonder why we seem a cynical lot?
Is it any surprise when you analyse the lies that this lot have spread and the lives theyre responsible for taking due to their insistance on forcing through a policy that deals exclusively with a minor causation factor?

You Jr have much to learn, and whether you interpret this post as displayed arrogance or not really dosent matter at all, deep down you know the above is all true, thats a real tragedy.

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"Safety" Scamera Partnerships;
Profitting from death and misery since 1993.

Believe nothing- Question everything.

errr no! I have already explained that your original first question (and those subsequent) were based on a straw man argument, not something you could counter.


If anything is getting repeatedly tedious, it is your inability to recognise the significance of the use of eyes/arms.


It is not irrelevant because you accept their judgement as fact (and the question was aimed at you, not me)




Don’t forget, it wasn’t me who raised this issue in the argument between us. I’m happy to discard it.


I said no-one was defending him in the context of the speed he did. We were discussing the merits of arm off and/or eyes momentarily elsewhere. Seems you got a bit dizzy from going in your circles.


And now we approach endgame.

Given the fact that I have already countered that assertion (which you accepted), you will have to understand that it makes it rather hard for anyone to accept that you genuinely care about taking part in a discussion about road safety.


No, I am showing how you are blatantly contradicting yourself, not something you have been able counter. My repeated success at highlighting the flaws in your posts, combined with your lack of acknowledgement or counter, is proof of your insincerity.


A trolling comment, again without any basis.
I notice you repeat this pattern several times in your last response.
I suspect you have run out of options in your attempts to discredit this campaign and are resorting to petty insults before you ‘cop out’.


Of course you won’t be able to prove any of that; however, I can point to your outright trolling here, here and here.









And now for the nub of it. Forget all the stuff above, this is what does it for me!
WOW

Clearly you have no experience of control of motorised transport on a public highway. I think we can leave it there!

I’m done!

WOW

Er, now you just appear stupid (again). You see, you copped-out of answering a lot of my questions, such as what you actually DO consider to be careless driving. In your world, nothing counts.


Clearly you have no experience of control of motorised transport on a public highway. I think we can leave it there!

Again, you're just being moronic. I have been driving for many, many years. Let's face it, you just want to pretend that you're being presecuted, just like the jews, eh Smeggy. Poor poor you, you want everyone to say. No, what you need is to grow up and accept some responsiblity in your life. You DON'T know better than a jury. And if you drive like that man did, then sooner or later, you will get banned too.

Thats a pile of hogwash and you know it.

Oh come now, DF, I know that you'd much prefer to use the word shit!

The numerical speed is the problem in modern "road safety" practice as theres an entirely unhealthy focus upon it as a source of causation.

Which is why, for the purposes of this thread, I DIDN'T talk about speed!!!!!!!!!!!! My god, what is it with you that makes you either so stupid, or such a troll, or so utterly, utterly obsessed with speed. I bet you still don't realise that I have been talking about careless driving!

The second part of what youve written is exactly the point, it matters very greatly HOW you drive.
Far too many people pay no attention to any part of their driving practices, in fact they display total indifference and unprofessionalism every time they get behind the wheel, yet theres so little attempt to address that part of the equation, and you wonder why we seem a cynical lot?
Is it any surprise when you analyse the lies that this lot have spread and the lives theyre responsible for taking due to their insistance on forcing through a policy that deals exclusively with a minor causation factor?

You Jr have much to learn, and whether you interpret this post as displayed arrogance or not really dosent matter at all, deep down you know the above is all true, thats a real tragedy.

Er, but I've been arguing about careless driving, not speeding!!!!! You need to see a counsellor about your obsession about talking about speed!

Oh yes - you've obviously tried to twist round the "deep down" argument that I used. Deep down, you, Smeggy, and many many others don't genuinely care about road safety. What you care about is being able to drive just how you feel. And especially in your case, it is completely obvious - why? Because of your obsession with speed, which is so transparent in every single post that you write. Even in this post you've been talking about speed. So I think that you have either been trolling this whole time, deliberately trying to get me round up, or your mind really is stuck in a very obsessed way with speed.

Like I said: I'm done

Right to the end, you couldn't bring yourself to answer a lot of my pertinent questions, such as, in particular, what you actually think is careless.

And by the way, I wasn't actually talking about changing gear but waving your hand in the air, nor looking at a road sign but looking at a speed camera (I suspect as a rather suspicious and trolling person that you changed it, or simply copied the wrong bits down). Did you know (maybe you do but you probably couldn't care less) that several people have been killed or seriously injured at evey speed camera spot? So looking at a speed camera, waving your hand in the air, whilst driving at speeds of up to 105mph, certainly is careless.

And the fact that you would never give any examples whatsoever, saying that it was "irrelevant", just demonstrates that you don't actually know (or probably care) what careless means.

JR, earlier on in this thread I almost had a bit of respect for you and your counter-argument attempts - didn't agree but at least thought you might be open for sensible discussion. However, as the debate progressed and your points were being defeated, you have revealed yourself as the typical troll - unable to debate rationally or accept defeat; instead resorting to childish comments and abuse.

You might also want to try using the 'preview' button before posting - you know, to check that those [quotes] are in the correct place.

In fact, you're not far off last year's favourite troll - TSM anyone?

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Why can't we just use Common Sense?

But my points WEREN'T being defeated! And I have been debating rationally as far as it's been possible against people who go round in circles and ignore my very pertinent points. For example, why didn't you say anything against DF for talking about speed when I was talking about careless driving, or say anything against Smeggy when he refused to actually say what he DID think was careless?

As for the childish comments and abuse............

Well, well, well... all in it together are we? You see, Nemesis, I might have had a bit of respect for that, except that I haven't seen you on a single occasion criticise DF for the same. (as a random example, you might well want to have a look back to see whether it was me who someone else who first used the word dickhead...)

So enough of your hypocrisy thank you very much.




You might want to recommend that this site gets a better quoting system, like the simple system on This is London.



Oh come now, you're only calling people troll's because you simply can't stand the fact that they have a different point of view from you. I suspect that ANYONE who has a strongly different point of view is called a troll.

I had already told you what I considered as careless driving, I can’t help the fact you didn’t realise you actually didn’t ask me for ‘any examples’ which is what you are now asking. Your only other question in your last post was a result of your exceedingly poor use of English. The rest of your post didn’t require a response (at any level).


It matters not. You have given your clear answer to my clear question and more importantly: you did not distance yourself from it. With that I am happy to let others judge you.


Pathetic

Liar. I had been asking you all along. You declared it irrelevant.



My exceedingly poor use of English? Now you're just getting desperate. I actually seriously doubt that you really believe that; my use of English is good.



You mean you just couldn't think of any way to twist things round some more.




Except that I was never talking about changing gear. I have always been talking about looking up at a speed camera, waving your hand in the air, and driving at speeds of up to 105mph. And the fact that you STILL don't answer the question of what you would actually consider to be careless shows what a disingenuous person you are. As for people judging me, I have no doubt, on a site like this where you all worship each other and are all biased (just like Nemesis), that they will judge me from your (twisted and trolling) point of view.




Is that all you can say? You are now so desperate that all you can say is pathetic. Let's face, you know perfectly well that you have been twisting things round all over the place. For example, how many times did you say that I had failed to convince you that it was careless, when I had never intended to do that? Twisting things round like that, or rather, lying about what I have been arguing, is pretty low.

But as I said before, I knew that you would lie.

The whole thread has got pathetic. Nobody knows whats actually being argued any more because any points have got typically crossed up and distorted.
And does anybody, apart from those obsessed with getting the last word in even though they've declared themselves to be finished, actually care?
Have a word with yourselves for crying out loud

I believe Smeggy has answered that already.



Yes, I see DF calls some of those in authority 'dickheads'. Now in terms of diplomacy I agree that would not personally be my first choice of words.
However, although a crude description, I do agree with the sentiment about many of those in charge of road 'safety'.



Well it seems everyone else here understands it - obviously far too much for you to comprehend though!



Simply not true - there are a number of members here who argue against the SS view-points and are quite well respected. The difference is that they argue their points rationally and with merit, without resorting to childishness.

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Why can't we just use Common Sense?

Right. I've got better things to do with my life than sit and read through the rest of the thread, but I will respond to these points...



You can't quantify it and that's the problem. You could give me a scenario and I could use my own judgement to tell you whether I THOUGHT it was careless or not, but I couldn't set out a series of criteria which constituted careless driving.

Thousands of motorists perform careless acts every time they get into a car. We all see it and we all condemn the actions under our breath. How many of these acts are witnessed by the police and actually punished? So the juducial system is not always right...



I do have a high opinion of my ability and this is reinforced every time I go out on the road.

I don't accept that crashes are caused by a whole variety of things. NEAR MISSES are caused by a whole variety of things, but CRASHES involving ME are cause by MY failure to observe and predict the situation. Whether the 'accident' was actually my fault or not I can still hold myself responsible for not avoiding it.



I find it very insulting that you assume that because I'm prepared to exceed the speed limit on an EMPTY MOTORWAY in good conditions, putting no-one at risk at all that I am prepared to drive dangerously on residential streets. I drive and ride to a speed appropriate to the conditions at ALL TIMES. Usually on residential streets that involves driving at BELOW the speed limit (and usually being either tailgated or flashed / honked by the w*nkers who seem to think that the speed limit is a target and you cannot possibly travel below it).

You'll find that almost all of the members of this forum are at an advanced level of driving. Whether or not we're members of the IAM, RoSPA or not, most if not all of us drive at a significantly higher standard than average (which really isn't hard). You'll notice that the forum has a section for discussing near misses and crashes which is vital in improving one's own skill and ability. So yes, I would say that we are more than qualified to make our own judgements on someone elses driving.

Personally I believe that anyone involved in a trial relating to something like careless / dangerous driving should be an advanced driver as most of the public really don't have the first clue about what safe and appropriate driving really is.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Whys that then? I thought that by abstaining from swearing at "individuals" id be upholding the rules of the site....you have read them....havent you?
Not only that but i feel itd tend to bebase my pertinent points......




Me? Obsessed? Nah! I dont happen to care what the velocimeter reads as long as im driving safely then it matters not. Its the last thing on my mind, unlike the authorities. And guess what? The rider got done using scamera evidence.
What youre missing my friend ( come now i really want to hug you ) is that the whole edifice of modern road "safety" (such as it is) is based on SPEED! You hear it all the time. Hardly any adverts for "careless " driving on TV is there? I doubt very much he'd have been hauled up for doing 10mph and V signing the camera....dont you?



Of course i do. But you need also to realise that this case wouldnt have come to trial except for the evidence caught on a scamera......starting to awaken yet Jr?




Its not my fault, but when i feel the need, the need for.....:shrugs: what can ya do?



Thats not something you can determine from a couple of posts on an internet forum, maybe you enjoy watersports or some other activity....we cant tell unless we have more info.



Its true i just want to drive, but i dont "get the back out" or play half witted games while out there, i drive with safety in mind, hence a clean licence (always).



Why?



Its not an obsession its purely a factor to be taken into consideration.....



Says the man who mentions it 7 times.....

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"Safety" Scamera Partnerships;
Profitting from death and misery since 1993.

Believe nothing- Question everything.