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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 09:57 
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Wayhay - a few more 'last words' 8-)

Thats told him eh? Bet he's really ready to accept the SS argument now :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 10:39 
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Rigpig wrote:
Wayhay - a few more 'last words' 8-)

Thats told him eh? Bet he's really ready to accept the SS argument now :roll:


So maybe we shouldnt even attempt to respond to anyone with rational arguments then? Even when theirs are so out of kilter with what we know?

Its not about "telling him" or even seeing him off or " having the last word", its about debating the points raised, however they arise so if youre seriously suggesting they shouldnt be debated (even to their death) then whats the point of a forum like this? Might as well just quit now eh?

Thats my last word on it.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 11:06 
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DeltaF wrote:
So maybe we shouldnt even attempt to respond to anyone with rational arguments then?


As long as it can be confined to rational arguments of course not, but it hasn't, has it? Its become a nitpicking, points scoring pissing contest where each post get carved up into little bits so that snide remarks and irrelevancies can be levelled at out of context sentences. In fact, when you take a look at other 'discussions' that are conducted in this 'sentence slicing' manner, they do have a nasty habit of descending into chaos because they get so difficult to follow. Also, they nearly always contain remarks like 'I've proven to you' or 'here you said this, now you say that which is it' when nothing has been proven and posters have chosen to mis-represent something the other said.
And it gets even worse when posters don't nest their quotes properly :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Careless driving
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 11:53 
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Well - Steve's henchmen zap anything that moves here. :roll: Our doo-dah sounds the alarms even though we are well below lollies :roll:

Our rogue sons and the youngest girl pull funny faces at the vans :lol: and our older girls blow a kiss :lol:

They actually wave back at them with what looks like a gritted "friendly" smile ::lol:

But some time back - Steve prosecuted a bloke for driving past one of his henchmen at just 20 mph whilst giving them a "salute" :roll: He had been done for an alleged 44 mph in a 40 mph (which Steve denies as "he always sticks to them guidelines :roll:" But if that were the case - why is our car always getting pinged for no reason other than it happens to be in motion and most obviously legal as it is not overtaking traffic and sometimes being overtaken :? :roll: )

Old geezer was cross - so next time he saw the van on the A6 - he gestured what he thought and he got a fine back in 2004.




jr135 wrote:
Nine counts of careless driving and you lot are basically defending this person. I thought this site was supposed to be about driving safely?

Let's face it, you simply want to drive at whatever speed you like and the "safe speed" argument used on this site is merely to provide some sort of justification for doing so.

Well let me just so this: ha ha! Your comrade-in-arms has been banned from driving for a year, and fined £900 with £600 costs. :D

As for the issue about the police having to be a bit determined to catch him, firstly, they're only human, and secondly, he drove carelessly nine times - how many does it have to be before it's right for the police to make an effort to catch the person?


None of the comments seem to be about the speed - more about the means taken to trace this guy. Perhaps a few more policemen around mighg have deterred the high speeds he got up to in the first place :scratchchin:

Now there's a novel idea. Policemen out and about. Yobs I mentioned attacking the lone :cop: on another thread is a different matter and each patrol should really have two plod in for safety as well as verifying any evidence seen :roll:

Most of us actually suggest COAST type driving anyway and police presence helps promote this by simply being there too perhaps :wink:

original piece wrote:
Roaring past speed cameras on his powerful BMW, biker Philip Coffey would raise two fingers in the air in an act of insolent defiance.



Coffey, a bus driver who loathed the cameras, knew his picture was taken time and time again -at speeds of up to 105mph.



Philip Coffey: Knew he was being caught on camera at speeds up to 105mph

But with his face obscured by his helmet and no number plate on the front of his bike, he thought he would get away with it.



On some occasions he may have been recorded at this speed. On the one where his visor is raised - he probably was at a trip tolerance flash level.

Bit silly. Some kids in Berne were disqualified for "mooning at a scamera" Kid drove past at trig speed whilst his mate pointed his bare bum at it. :yikes: hanging out the passenger window. :roll:

Only the kid forgot that the scam also had a photo of the reg plates and I think they each got a 6 month ban and a huge fine based on their ability to pay. :roll:

original wrote:
However, he hadn't reckoned on the determination of police, who made extensive checks with BMW and the national registration database.

They revealed the existence of only three such bikes in his home county of Bedfordshire.


The search was conclusively narrowed down to Coffey when markings on his leathers, when he was traced, matched those on the pictures. He had also adapted his BMW with extra headlights.

As a result, the 45-year-old found himself in Luton Crown Court this week facing ten charges of dangerous driving.

Coffey, from Dunstable, was told by Judge Michael Kay QC: "Some of these speeds were eye-watering. You decided to take the system on and I am pleased to say you lost."

Prosecutor Natalie Carter said the combination of high speed and taking his hand off the controls on five of the occasions elevated the offences from speeding to dangerous driving.


But she failed to convince the jury :popcorn:

Has to be proven beyond doubt :popcorn: after all :popcorn:

original wrote:
The offences covered a period between February and June last year when he was caught by the same three cameras in Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard, all when he was driving to or from his bus depot in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire.

Coffey told the jury: "A lot of the time I was just accelerating for the cameras. I don't like them, I don't like the existence of them in this country."

He admitted he thought he would not get caught.

The jury cleared him of dangerous driving but convicted him of nine counts of careless driving. He then pleaded guilty to a further nine charges of speeding.

He was banned from driving for a year, fined £900 with £600 costs.

Judge Kay added: "It is not clear why you did this apart from sheer cussedness



No I don't like them. No one does. :roll: Like the kids - I give them a ":roll: and mutter "pathetic" when I see the vans lurking just beyond the lolly changes :roll:

I do not accelerate towards them nor do I decelerate towards them either. I note them and do a quick speed check glance like everyone I know and ensure any adjustment required is marginal and smooth. But then being COAST led - not straying by wide margins anyways :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 13:28 
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Riggy is right. My apologies to all.

I have walked away, taking with me some high-level points to ponder. I suggest we all take a breather and let the topic get back on track.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 13:45 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
Personally I believe that anyone involved in a trial relating to something like careless / dangerous driving should be an advanced driver as most of the public really don't have the first clue about what safe and appropriate driving really is.


Quite, though skewing the jury could be the thin end of a wedge that could lead to the end of being judged by 12 good men (and gurls :D ).

And more importantly to his arguements JR135 still ain't said if he's ever actually sat of a jury. And having sat on one it's an important point.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 20:43 
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jr135 wrote:
[...]Deep down, you, Smeggy, and many many others don't genuinely care about road safety. What you care about is being able to drive just how you feel.

Whilst I can't speak for anyone else on this forum, I take exception to that comment.

Nothing would please me more to be able to get my bike out of the garage and be able to go for a ride (either for pleasure or to work) without being in constant fear for my life, from bird-brained road-users with no road skills, other than those they learned when they were taking their test.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 21:09 
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BottyBurp wrote:
jr135 wrote:
[...]Deep down, you, Smeggy, and many many others don't genuinely care about road safety. What you care about is being able to drive just how you feel.

Whilst I can't speak for anyone else on this forum, I take exception to that comment.


While I agree that the comment is intended to be offensive, it actually contains an element of vital truth.

An appropriate speed always 'feels' right to an experienced driver. In a very real way we MUST 'drive how we feel'. That risk assessment routine in the subconsious gives us an uncomfortable nudge if we're too slow or too fast.

For any ordinary, responsible, experienced driver choosing a speed that 'feels right' is absolutely essential to road safety. If it wasn't for that we would have no reason to be going slower when it snowed (for example)...

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 21:35 
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smeggy wrote:
Riggy is right. My apologies to all.

I have walked away, taking with me some high-level points to ponder. I suggest we all take a breather and let the topic get back on track.


Riggers usually is. :bow:

Look - most of us more or less agree on most issues of road safety. We all have some different ideas as to what constitutes road safety - but by discussing them without sinking to "ad homimen" attacks brings dignity to a cause. Of course - we can leg pull and engage in funny banter - and yes - there's a thin line between what we think funny and someone else sees as "insult". But most of us should be intelligent enough to see the difference and if we do not - there is a pm facility and maybe some issues should be resolved that way with each party then making some oblique reference to the patch up in the public domain.

But would I be offended if some twit sgave me a what the Swiss call a "Stinkfinger" salute.

You bet I would :hissyfit: I'd really lay in with an acid which would require a whole bottle of "Milk of Magnesia" to normalise :lol:

If the biker was well over the ton at the time I or any of my lads copped him - I can guarantee that he would never have comiited any more similar offences.

But then .. he did this in a scam zone. Would he have even done anythting so daft in N Yorks or Durham where stupidity gets stamped on with immediate effect?


I am not sure.. but then we do come across the terminally and criminally stupid all the same :roll:


I warn you now. Just because our respective CCs question fine by robotic Highwayman does not mean folk can drive through our patches at really stupid speeds and standards. These two forces proscute more careless/dangerous offences than any other force. :popcorn: Not an "accident". Professional police enforcement. Result? consistently low KSI stats :popcorn:

I am not being compalcent. No one can afford to be complacent and we do evaluate with a view to improve things all the more.

I know we can do better - we always try to.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 21:45 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
An appropriate speed always 'feels' right to an experienced driver. In a very real way we MUST 'drive how we feel'. That risk assessment routine in the subconsious gives us an uncomfortable nudge if we're too slow or too fast.

For any ordinary, responsible, experienced driver choosing a speed that 'feels right' is absolutely essential to road safety.


Are you saying that the appropriate speed for any road is one that 'feels right' to your notional ordinary, responsible, experienced driver ?

SafeSpeed wrote:
If it wasn't for that we would have no reason to be going slower when it snowed (for example)...


Hmm, the cretins who passed me in the driving rain on the way home from Shrewsbury an hour ago seemed not to view the fact that visibility was down to 50 or so yards as reason to be going slower. And there were an awful lot of them. Perhaps the number of ordinary, responsible, experienced drivers on the roads is smaller than we'd like to think.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 22:27 
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Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
An appropriate speed always 'feels' right to an experienced driver. In a very real way we MUST 'drive how we feel'. That risk assessment routine in the subconsious gives us an uncomfortable nudge if we're too slow or too fast.

For any ordinary, responsible, experienced driver choosing a speed that 'feels right' is absolutely essential to road safety.


Are you saying that the appropriate speed for any road is one that 'feels right' to your notional ordinary, responsible, experienced driver ?






Riggers - in very normal conditions - most choose a a mutally compliant speed :wink: If all did not drive to the standard we expect from the reasonable standard -police could just not cope .. nor could the pratnerships to be honest :roll: [


Quote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
If it wasn't for that we would have no reason to be going slower when it snowed (for example)...


Hmm, the cretins who passed me in the driving rain on the way home from Shrewsbury an hour ago seemed not to view the fact that visibility was down to 50 or so yards as reason to be going slower. And there were an awful lot of them. Perhaps the number of ordinary, responsible, experienced drivers on the roads is smaller than we'd like to think.


Cold rainy old Britain. How we all take her weather tantrums for granted

:roll:

Riggers - we are still talkign of a major COAST fail in 4 areas there - as these idiots would have observed weather - anticipated potentila hazardn and planned by allowign more space and time :roll:


Yes - I will plug COAST .

If we use this acronym to assess those we offer a course in place of a fine and penalty points - then we must try to inform the world out there of this system. Then try to correct errors as best we can :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 22:35 
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In Gear wrote:
Riggers - we are still talkign of a major COAST fail in 4 areas there - as these idiots would have observed weather - anticipated potentila hazardn and planned by allowign more space and time :roll:


I'm not sure I'm with you here IG. They may have allowed a bit more space and time than they did before the deluge started, but they certainly weren't allowing anywhere near enough such that they could stop in the space they could see was clear.
The weather clagged in and I lost sight of the car ahead of me, it had been approx 100 yards ahead, the rain and spray reduced visibilty down to about 50 yards, perhaps less. I slowed to a more appropriate speed and was being passed like I was going backwards.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 23:01 
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Rigpig wrote:
In Gear wrote:
Riggers - we are still talkign of a major COAST fail in 4 areas there - as these idiots would have observed weather - anticipated potentila hazardn and planned by allowign more space and time :roll:


I'm not sure I'm with you here IG. They may have allowed a bit more space and time than they did before the deluge started, but they certainly weren't allowing anywhere near enough such that they could stop in the space they could see was clear.
The weather clagged in and I lost sight of the car ahead of me, it had been approx 100 yards ahead, the rain and spray reduced visibilty down to about 50 yards, perhaps less. I slowed to a more appropriate speed and was being passed like I was going backwards.


Still a serious COAST error; They could not stop in distance they could see to be clear - because of the rain :roll:

I would have pulled in the past when "active and not directing " . I know our team here would have had words too .


Dependent on what was SEEN - this woukd determine charges. We have been known to give lectures over within limit but not safe to condition :rolll:


But ,. it's a professional judegement call and each time we do use our professional discretion : it's a gamble and we trust it pays . So far - we seem to be hitting right notes - but we are alwyas aware of a bum flat note all the same :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 23:17 
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Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
An appropriate speed always 'feels' right to an experienced driver. In a very real way we MUST 'drive how we feel'. That risk assessment routine in the subconsious gives us an uncomfortable nudge if we're too slow or too fast.

For any ordinary, responsible, experienced driver choosing a speed that 'feels right' is absolutely essential to road safety.


Are you saying that the appropriate speed for any road is one that 'feels right' to your notional ordinary, responsible, experienced driver ?


Yeah. Hence 85th percentile speeds and all that is implied by them.

And think of the alternatives. Designate a 30mph road and drive at 30mph regardless. That'd be simply murderous.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 23:21 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
And think of the alternatives. Designate a 30mph road and drive at 30mph regardless. That'd be simply murderous.


Why does this always have to be offered as the only alternative? Aren't there any others?


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 23:29 
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Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
And think of the alternatives. Designate a 30mph road and drive at 30mph regardless. That'd be simply murderous.


Why does this always have to be offered as the only alternative? Aren't there any others?


I don't think there's ever going to be an alternative to 'dynamic individual risk management' - at least not in my lifetime.

And adjusting speed is the primary output in the individual risk management process.

If we're going to deny that, then surely we have to accept that the risk > speed control loop would be opened?

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 23:41 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
And think of the alternatives. Designate a 30mph road and drive at 30mph regardless. That'd be simply murderous.


Why does this always have to be offered as the only alternative? Aren't there any others?


I don't think there's ever going to be an alternative to 'dynamic individual risk management' - at least not in my lifetime.

And adjusting speed is the primary output in the individual risk management process.

If we're going to deny that, then surely we have to accept that the risk > speed control loop would be opened?


So the only 'alternative', if we don't have this 'dynamic individual risk management' is to drive a road designated as 30mph AT 30mph then?


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 23:56 
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Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
And think of the alternatives. Designate a 30mph road and drive at 30mph regardless. That'd be simply murderous.


Why does this always have to be offered as the only alternative? Aren't there any others?


I don't think there's ever going to be an alternative to 'dynamic individual risk management' - at least not in my lifetime.

And adjusting speed is the primary output in the individual risk management process.

If we're going to deny that, then surely we have to accept that the risk > speed control loop would be opened?


So the only 'alternative', if we don't have this 'dynamic individual risk management' is to drive a road designated as 30mph AT 30mph then?


Seems like it to me... Anyone got any other views?

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 00:10 
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OK then, should this dynamic risk management consider any factors other than those that the driver perceives to be relevant to him/herself? And would the assessment process alter with, say, the feedback the vehicle gives to the driver? Or with the radio volume? Or even the age and capabilities of the vehicle?


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 00:26 
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Rigpig wrote:
OK then, should this dynamic risk management consider any factors other than those that the driver perceives to be relevant to him/herself?


Since risk posed is pretty much equivalent to risk received, and since this system has already given us a safety record of 1 death per 100 million miles driven, we should trust the system and improve it, rather than ty to change it. Clearly it's a very good system.

Rigpig wrote:
And would the assessment process alter with, say, the feedback the vehicle gives to the driver? Or with the radio volume? Or even the age and capabilities of the vehicle?


I don't know where you're headed, exactly.

Dymanic ability of the vehicle is interesting. A vehicle with better brakes can clearly go somewhat faster for the same final risk values.

The big factors are 'risk sensitivity' and 'margin for error'. With good risk sensitivity and good margins for error the final risks are absolutely tiny. ('I've never had a crash in my life' type tiny).

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