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 Post subject: Anal PSNI
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 22:02 
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Below is a letter is sent to the PSNI after being issued with a fixed penalty for driving 77m in a bus lane.

17th May 2007


Dear Sirs,


On Friday 11th May 2007 at 1640 hrs approx, I was issued with a fixed penalty fine for driving in a bus lane during the operating times of the bus lane.

Fix Penalty Serial Number Vehicle registration

I would like to request that the issuing of this fixed penalty is reviewed before the 21 days of the fixed penalty has expired. I feel there are circumstances that the PSNI officer did not take into consideration before issuing the fixed penalty.

The incident took place on the Antrim Road Belfast. The location of the bus lane is a 77m stretch between Strathmore Park and Innisfayle Park Belfast.

A PSNI officer from the Urban Traffic Unit issued the fixed penalty. At the time of the issuing of the fixed penalty the first two bus lane signs indicating the times for the bus lane were not at right angles to the road, therefore making it difficult to observe the signs and furthermore making it difficult to read the information on the signs.

The first sign located 31m before the bus lane and was turned through nearly 90 degrees outward facing the road. Making it difficult to observe and therefore difficult to read any information contained on the sign. The second sign was turned through a full 90 degrees inward facing the footpath, making it impossible to know what type of sign it was and impossible to read any of the information on the sign.

It was not until you passed the second sign and you entered the bus lane that there was BUS LANE written on the road. Therefore, if you could not see the sign or read the information on the first two signs, it would not have been until the third sign that you would have known the bus lane times.

The first two signs are sited 140m and 171m respectively from the North Circular Road, Antrim Road junction. The third sign is 275m from the same junction and 135m from the first sign. Only 77m is bus lane from the second sign at Strathmore Park to before the third sign at Innisfayle Park with a break of 28m for a left turn into Innisfayle Park.
(Please refer to the photos enclosed and line diagram)

When I observed the third bus lane sign, which was in the correct position at a right angle to the road facing the on coming traffic. I noted that I was in the bus lane during the bus lane operation and I immediately moved out into the outside lane.

It was a further 150m beyond the third sign when I had halted at the traffic lights at the Waterloo Park, Donegall Park Avenue and Antrim Road junction that the PSNI officer stopped me in the outside lane. He then signalled for me to go back into the near side lane and issued the fixed penalty, thus blocking the bus lane.

At this point, the officer questioned me and asked if I had seen the signs on entering the bus lane. I said I had not seen the signs or the times on entering the bus lane. It was only at the properly positioned sign approximately 150m behind the point that I was pulled over that I had observed and noted that I was in the bus lane during the quarantine period and hence my manoeuvre into the outside lane.

When I explained to the officer that when I did observe the sign and the times I immediately moved out into the outside lane out of the bus lane, the officer insisted that I should have seen the first two signs.

The officer replied I should have seen the signs with the times of the bus lane as they are sited at the entrance to this bus lane. However, the officer did not take me back to show me these signs at the entrance to the bus lane. The officer then asked, if I was a regular user of the road and did I know the times of the bus lane to which I replied no.

After issuing the fixed penalty, the officer ‘cautioned’ me and informed me that I had 21 days to pay the fixed penalty.

On my return journey home, I noted that the signs were not at right angles to the road and on coming traffic, therefore they are difficult if not imposable to see or read any information contained on the sign. I returned and took photographs of the signs as evidence against the issuing of the fixed penalty. (Please refer to the photos enclosed)


I feel that I cannot be held responsible if street furniture is not positioned correctly at right angles to the oncoming traffic giving the road user a chance to firstly observe the sign, read the information contained on the sign and make any necessary manoeuvre to comply with the sign.

In closing, I would like to say if the PSNI officer from the Urban Traffic Unit had been as observant as he was efficient at handing out the fixed penalty. He would have observed that the first two bus lane signs were not at right angles to the oncoming traffic and therefore difficult to see and read any information contained thereon, and not have assumed that I had purposely drove past the first two bus lane signs, thus breaking the bus lane quarantine!

My understanding for the purpose of these signs is to inform the oncoming driver of the times of the bus lane quarantine. I cannot be expected to know all the times of every bus lane quarantine, hence the need for signs. These signs have firstly to be seen and the information contained on these signs has to be observed to be acted on, this while concentrating on the road ahead, road conditions, other road users and while watching your speed to keep within the legal speed limit for the road and not be a danger to yourself or other road users.
If these signs are not positioned correctly at right angles to the road facing the oncoming traffic it is impossible for any driver to do all of the actions required above and to keep themselves and other road users safe.

If road users are expected to do all of the actions mentioned above and to watch out for inappropriate signage then road carnage will be the only outcome!

The photos enclosed were taken on Saturday 12th May 2007 as were the dimensions as to the siting of the street furniture and the total distance of the incident.

Since this incident I have received legal advice, quoting the above, and have been recommended to proceed in the manner I am. Under the circumstances and the evidence I have shown I would consider it only just to have this ‘fixed penalty’ ticket revoked.

Should you need to contact me other than by mail my mobile number is.

I look forward with anticipation to your early comments in respect of the above.


Yours sincerely


enc.

Below you will find the anal replay from the PSNI and pics of the signs

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9717614@N02/?saved=1


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 22:08 
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It seems that no matter what mitigating circumstances proving your innocence the police know thy have you so it’s pay up or go to court and get some ass magistrate find in favour of the police and give you a larger fine!

The system is not fair on the motorist.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 22:53 
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I have to say, that's pretty unfair of them. I'd pay them a visit or take it to court.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:28 
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Our local council changed a bus lane to allow cars wishing to take a left turn to enter it a little earlier rather than waiting in the queue for a set of light a few hundred yards down the road. This was only done after much pressure was applied from local mps.

The council are now complaining that their revenue has been reduced because they do not fine as many people as before.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 18:12 
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Are those signs even allowed? I don't remember seeing the word "permitted" on them.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 01:37 
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Not totally related, although related to the PSNI...

I'm currently being given an 'Informed Warning' for Obstructing a Constable... Flashed headlights as a warning to an oncoming driver about a speed trap... Pretty much incriminated myself... Contacted the most senior officer at the unit that was prosecuting and he said next time stay quiet and don't speak...

Oh well, that's me screwed for a year if I do anything wrong...

I also asked the higher ranking officer what I could do about it... He asid it's up to me, but he would take the warning, as court could go either way, case law doesn't always work, etc..

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 09:29 
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Mike, Did this occur somewhere near where you live? If so for all the police know you could have been flashing someone you knew.

And what about the lorry driver, who was found not guilty of obstructing the police (can’t find the article), there was a mention on another web page which said:

Quote:
OBSTRUCTING POLICE OFFICERS
A lorry driver who waved a warning to drivers behind him that they were approaching a police speed trap in Somerset was not guilty of obstructing officers, the High Court ruled. It held that there was no evidence that any speeding driver had seen the signal. But how exactly could he 'obstruct' officers, whether his signal had been seen or not? Police say they want to stop motorists speeding and that's what would have happened. Or is the truth that they want to trap motorists in order to fine them?


I wouldn't give in to easy.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 09:50 
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mikes1988 wrote:
Not totally related, although related to the PSNI...

I'm currently being given an 'Informed Warning' for Obstructing a Constable... Flashed headlights as a warning to an oncoming driver about a speed trap... Pretty much incriminated myself... Contacted the most senior officer at the unit that was prosecuting and he said next time stay quiet and don't speak...

Oh well, that's me screwed for a year if I do anything wrong...

I also asked the higher ranking officer what I could do about it... He asid it's up to me, but he would take the warning, as court could go either way, case law doesn't always work, etc..


Thanks for the replays.

The quote above is systematic of the policing we have now in the UK. It seems that the motorist if easy game and a cash cow for all the police forces around the UK. This is in issue that we as motorists and voters have the tools to change.

I have seen a statistic that 3+ million motorists are driving under the yoke of penalty points. Now this is a large proportion of the electorate. If that 3+ million were to get at lest 1 other family member or friend to abstain from voting at the next election and made it clear to all the political swine that darken our doors looking to join the commons gravy train.

We need to inform the swine they must sort out this unfair criminalisation of motorists and removing the motorists basic right to remain silent. The fact is the whole mechanism of the police and courts are brought down on the motorist yet the criminal can recommit crimes and they get a sympathetic ear from the bleeding hart liberals.

Yet these same bleeding hart liberals want the motorist to cough up for every time you are caught doing a few miles over the speed limit. By an SAS trained police operator using a hand held speed gun hiding in a camouflaged hide at 400+m in the distance.

Places you can expect to find police laser weapon operators are in gardens, behind walls, around a bend in the road, over the bough of a hill, behind a peace of street furniture, behind unmarked police vehicles or just a few meters into a speed reduction in the road. As you can see from the locations above they all conform to the police approved codes of practice for using speed detection equipment?

The most infuriating thing is the police give you the ultimatum of if you don’t like it then go to court. Then when you do you go to court you are ambushed by some anal magistrate who believes the police officer. That he (the police officer) can target a moving object at 400+m to hit a 520 mm x 111 mm (20.5" x 4 3/8") number plate with a hand held or vehicle mounted laser gun. Lock onto this 520 mm x 111 mm (20.5" x 4 3/8") number plate and take an accurate reading?

The courts do not take into account any of the other mitigating circumstances i.e.
When firing this laser weapon does the operator, regulate their breathing, as breathing in and out will cause the laser weapon to move. (This can add additional miles onto you speed of the laser weapon moves up the bonnet of your car)

When the laser weapon is zeroed is the laser weapon zeroed at a distance less than 50m. If so, how can it be used as an accurate laser weapon over the 50m zeroing distance? As there is no record of the officer’s competence of using the laser weapon over the 50m zeroing distance? Take also into account the factors on breathing and other external environmental factors and the laser weapons accuracy must be called into question.

Not only hand held laser weapons need to be questioned but vehicle mounted laser weapons can be inaccurate too. Wind speed moving the unmarked laser weapon vehicle, passing traffic causing movement of the unmarked laser weapon vehicle and movement with in the vehicle will have an effect in the targeting of the laser weapon on an 400+m target of 520 mm x 111 mm (20.5" x 4 3/8") number plate. In addition, the zeroing of these laser weapons as detailed above needs to be addressed.

.



This is the death of what was left of the British Judicial System.

The police and the camera partnerships have now with the aid of the courts and the politicians got cart blanch to mug the motorist with fixed penalty fines, penalty points, and the motorist has no rights.

Is this what we call British Justice or Fair Play? Is this why we vote in our politicians?

Is the job of politicians and political parities to do the will of the electorate or to stealthily hide behind walls and in gardens to mug and bully the motorist?

As we have a deaf ear in the UK police forces (as the chief constable is not elected) the only option for the millions of oppressed motorists is to tell each and every potential parliamentary candidate when they came begging for our vote. To get these laws that prohibit the motorist from getting justice reversed or we the people will abstain from voting.

Can you imagine the constitutional mess if millions of motorists stayed at home and did not vote?

This I feel is the only way our voice will be heard by staying at home and saying nothing on voting day!

When do you have the right to remain silent?

If you explode a bomb, committing mass murder at a nightclub with hundreds of young people in side or drive into Glasgow airport with a firebomb. With the intention to murder, hundreds of families in side and get caught red handed you still...have the Right to Remain Silent. (Murder)
If you destroy the peace of a neighbourhood by damaging property and indulging in anti social behaviour you…. have the Right to Remain Silent. (Vandalism)
Steal from the elderly and the young and you…. have the Right to Remain Silent. (Theft)

Commit Rape on a Child or Rape the Elderly Spinster who works for the church and you….have the Right to Remain Silent!

However, whatever you do, don’t get a speeding ticket or the whole weight of the police and the British Judicial System will descend around you like a plague of locusts.
So we can see from the examples above the murder, vandal, thief, sexual deviant and the paedophile have more rights that a motorist!
Drive a Car, and get caught (rightly or wrongly) over the speed limit....I Have NO RIGHT TO SILENCE????It come to something when "proper" Criminals have more rights then the Law Abiding Motorist.

At the end of the day we the motorists are to blame. We should be telling the politicians that they can go and f*** themselves until they start to listen to us!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 09:59 
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Glendinning

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/4693076.stm

Back on topic,
Which is worth more, your time and some inconveinience fighting this, or the fine, as you would be putting forward a technical argument based on the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions.

If you want to fight, there are people who can help.

fatboytim


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 15:46 
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Just to let you all know how I got on today with my warning... He just asked me did I understand what it was, why I was getting it and I agreed, signed a sheet of paper which said I understand the above basically... He said they weren't out to catch the people doing 33 in a 30, its more the ones doing 60 or 70. Felt like saying you don't need a radar/laser to know if someones doing 60 or 70, but he was a nice enough guy. Handed me a new copy of the highway code to tell me how to use my lights... And that was it over...

Sorry for hijacking the topic :(

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 15:14 
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I need a little help!

I have received another communication from the PSNI. Can someone please advise me as to the law on the sitting of road signs and their angle to the oncoming traffic.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 16:48 
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at the risk of stepping out of line.....

i'll assume the road is a 30limit as i can't see any repeaters and no apparent change in limit into the residential side road.

from the 60m shot (over 4 seconds out) the blue of the sign is fairly apparent and the bolder white bus lane markings are visible.
from 30m out it is even clearer (2 seconds) and the merge arrows are visible.

obviously in the conditions photographed it is easy to spot and manouvre for, with traffic and distraction of side road hazards beforehand less so.

not to say i agree with the rigid fine and enforcement, but you seem to discount any yourself from any fault at all.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 17:51 
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Quote:
6.3 Sign installation and mounting

Vertical clearance
6.3.1
Any sign likely to be a hazard to pedestrians should be mounted at a minimum height of 2.1m. Clearance of 2.3m minimum is required to the underside of
signs where cyclists can cycle beneath them.
6.3.2
Signs may be mounted at lower heights where they do not represent a hazard to pedestrians, cyclists and motor vehicles, such as on grass verges and in parks.
6.3.3
There are no specific height restrictions for wall or bollard mounting. Heights of 0.5 to 1.5m are preferred providing they do not become obstructed.
Lateral clearance
6.3.4
Posts and signs should normally have a minimum of 450mm lateral clearance to the edge of carriageway.
6.3.5
For off-carriageway facilities, it is recommended that posts and signs should be positioned with sufficient clearance such that they do not encroach in to the travel envelope of cyclists as this reduces the effective width, and comfort, of the facility. Where the desired clearance is not feasible, it can be reduced providing the minimum recommended width of facility is maintained.
The number of post mounted signs should be minimised, by using road markings and surface treatments as alternatives

Signs and markings
109
Anti –rotational fixings
6.3.6
Where there is a risk that signs could be rotated (e.g. by wind or vandalism), anti-rotational fixings should be used, particularly on finger-post type direction signs. These are clamp type fittings sometimes with set-screws, as opposed to banding that has been frequently used.

Illumination
6.3.7
The illumination requirements for signs are listed in Schedule 17 of TSRGD 2002. However, in most instances, signs for off-carriageway facilities do not
require illumination, if street lighting is adequate. For example there is seldom any need to illuminate terminal signs to Diagram 955, 956 and 957. Cycle gaps on-carriageway routes may need illuminated signs to Diagram 955. In all instances the site cha
racteristics need to be considered to identify where
illumination is appropriate.
6.3.8
See figure 6.3 for a schedule of frequently used signs and markings, including illumination requirements and guidance notes.

6.4 Surface Markings

6.4.1
Surface markings are generally the best way to communicate traffic management and directional information to cyclists, and should be used wherever practicable. In high stress areas, it is essential to check the condition of surface marking on a regular basis and to take swift remedial action when
needed. All road/surface markings are classified as traffic signs and are covered by the same regulations and directions (TSRGD 2002).
To avoid challenge to enforcement, illumination as prescribed is essential Anti-rotational sign fixing should be specified where appropriate.


This is somewhere on the DfT site, and was on our UK Highways Authority site somewhere.
Try to Google Anti Rotational sign regulations and see what you find!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 18:58 
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ed_m wrote:
at the risk of stepping out of line.....

i'll assume the road is a 30limit as i can't see any repeaters and no apparent change in limit into the residential side road.

from the 60m shot (over 4 seconds out) the blue of the sign is fairly apparent and the bolder white bus lane markings are visible.
from 30m out it is even clearer (2 seconds) and the merge arrows are visible.

obviously in the conditions photographed it is easy to spot and manouvre for, with traffic and distraction of side road hazards beforehand less so.

not to say i agree with the rigid fine and enforcement, but you seem to discount any yourself from any fault at all.


I do not deny I was in the bus lane at the quarantine time. My point is that the first sign timings were not clearly visible and the second sign could not be read.

What the PSN did say in their letter, the first sign could read from 15-20m. However I measured the distance the sign could be read from and it was below 10m.

Therefore, a car travailing at 30mph will cover 13.4m per second. By my calculation, you will be at the sign and past the sign in 1 second.

By following the PSNI’s theory through to its inevitable conclusion, any driver who passes any unreadable sign the driver is still guilty of that particular offence.

The law states that if there is doubt it must be given to the defendant. It seems that the police will disregard any reasonable doubt and issue the fine.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 18:36 
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:gatso2: Ranger, having looked at your photos, specifically the one of the sign that's parallel with the road and also the one where the signpost isn't exactly perpendicular, there's one conclusion...SABOTAGE! This area is notorious for crowds of 50-200 drunken hoodie youths, who stand at the disused bus terminus by the old castle gate lodge. I should know as I narrowly missed hitting one of them who walked across the road believing his drunken state made him invincible.
I think the signs have been deliberately turned around by these drunken wasters. Also there is a hotel nearby, whose clientelle may have a drunken laugh at turning traffic signs around.

Last year, I noticed something seriously wrong with the traffic lights at the junction between the North Circular Road and the Antrim Road. The pedestrian crossing lights had been turned through 90 degrees to face oncoming motorists. From a distance the red and green lights from both sides of the road would be very confusing and an accident may result.

I know this area as I drive through it quite regularly and I regard these bus lanes as a nuisance. But if I'm asked to to stay out of them at certain times, then that's okay by me.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 00:18 
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This is anticipated in the regulations, copy above, which state anti-rotational fixings should be used.
Chech the fittings - if they are just straps, and not the cast or extruded fixings which are dearer!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 23:02 
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There was a set of traffic lights that were always being twisted round. The council would fix them and within days, it would be twisted round, again.

One day I found out what the problem was. A car dealer in a town centre site had a delivery of new cars one or sometimes twice a week. The car transporter overhung the sharp corner and hit the traffic lights, moving them out of position. I happened to glance out of our office window and saw it happen.

Any officer who does not realise that signs can be shifted by accident or design really ain't doing their job properly...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 21:39 
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Be low is a letter I sent to my MP as a reply to a letter he received on my behalf form the PSNI.

This issue is concerning a fixed penalty notice issued to me for driving in a bus lane.

Please read it and give me your thoughts

This was the last in a chain of letters sent to the PSNI on this matter. I may not have had my £30 back but I have the satisfaction of knowing it must have cost the PSNI more in time and letters replying to all my correspondence.

Not quite the result I would have wanted but I make it up as a score draw!!!

XXXXXXXX,
Belfast
BTXX XXX
24th August 2007

References:

A: The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 1994:
B: Road Traffic Act 1988:
C: The Highway Code:
D: Human Rights Act 1998:

E: Fix Penalty Serial Number XXXXXXX. Vehicle registration XXXXXX

Dear Mr. XXXXXX MP,

I am writing in reply to; Com Sec XX/XXXX, your letter to the PSNI Chief Constable on my behalf.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you on getting a reply from the PSNI, to my letter in connection with the issuing of a Fixed Penalty issued to myself on 11th May 2007.

I will start with categorically refuting the two references in the PSNI correspondence, as to my competence as a driver. I find these two, references extremely offensive.

The first reference is in the sentence referring to the road markings and states, “The road markings are clearly all visible to any competent driver from at least 50m”. The second reference is in the next paragraph and states that “However it is felt that this would still be clearly visible to a competent driver”. As far as I am aware, I do not know nor have I ever met Inspector XXXXXX, and Inspector XXXXXX as far as I am aware does not know nor has ever met myself.

This officers sweeping assumptions and generalizations as to my competency as a driver has to be seen in the context that this officer was not an eyewitness to the issuing of the Fixed Penalty incident nor has this officer to my knowledge seen or experienced my driving. I would like to state that if my competency as a driver were as poor as Inspector XXXXXX infers, then surely this would have been reflected in my driving record and the likely list of convictions, fines and penalty points that would come with an incompetent driver.

Therefore, how this officer can make this judgment as to my competency as a driver I feel is stretching his credibility as a senior PSNI officer, after making these sweeping assumptions and generalizations.

For the record and for Inspector XXXXXX information, I have been driving for over 23 years. In all that time I have never had an accident, driving conviction, speeding ticket, parking ticket or any other driving offence. I have also held a PSV and HGV licence in this time, and again with none of the offences set out above.

Therefore, to infer that I am not a competent driver is a slur on my character and driving ability.

May I inquire what qualifies Inspector XXXXXX to make such a slur on my character and driving ability?

Inspector XXXXXX has breached any confidence I had in the PSNI and him as a senior PSNI officer to be objective, open minded and fair in this matter. Therefore, I contest that this is a breach of my Human Rights,
under The Human Rights Act 1998 Articles 6 & 7.

I will therefore be requesting an apology at the earliest opportunity from Inspector XXXXXX.

I would like to inform Inspector XXXXXX that I have been the victim on two occasions of hit and runs from what are known as run around vehicles. On both occasions, I contacted the PSNI and on both occasions, I had to provide all my personal and vehicle documentation and this I duly produced. These PSNI actions made me feel as the victim of a crime that I was a suspect and I was not treated with the respect that a victim of a crime should be afforded. I received within two weeks of reporting both incidents letters stating the PSNI were taking no further action in relation to these matters.

Therefore, maybe it was too much for me to expect that I would receive any resemblance of fair play or justice from the PSNI in this issue of the issuing of the Fixed Penalty.

I find the quote in the Chief Constables report ”Making Northern Ireland Safer For Everyone Through professional, Progressive Policing” as meaningless waffle.


I have set out in the pages contained therein a series of points on my objections to the issuing of the Fixed Penalty Serial Number N XXXXXXX on Friday 11th May 2007, the alleged incident having taken place on the Antrim Road Belfast.

The fixed penalty and fine was issued to me for allegedly knowingly, that I was driving in a bus lane during the operating times of the bus lane.


I categorically refute this allegation and feel I have set out and proved beyond all reasonable doubt that the signs at the entrance to the bus lane were not perpendicular to the road and therefore not clearly visible. This is in contravention of the Road Traffic Act 1988 Chapter 52 Section 36 Para 3(b).
The Road Traffic Act 1988 Chapter 52 Section 36 Para 3(b) states, “To have been lawfully so placed, unless the contrary is proved”. I contest that Chapter 52 Section 36 of The Road Traffic Act 1988, refers that signs should be lawfully placed perpendicular to the road and to all on coming traffic.

I therefore, feel I will prove there were mitigating circumstances to my driving in the bus lane. And by my taking of photographs and measurements I feel I will have shown un-rebuked evidence, and corroborated by the PSNI issuing officer Constable XXXXXX, in reply to my first correspondence to the PSNI. That the signs at the entrance to this stretch of bus lane at the time of the alleged incident were not perpendicular to the road, and to all on coming traffic. Therefore, the signs could not and were not clearly obvious.

For the signs to be clearly obvious and the information contained on the signs to be clearly observed the signs need to be placed perpendicular to the road?

The signs at this section of bus lane where nether perpendicular to the road nor were they clearly obvious. Therefore they breach the Road Traffic Act 1988 Chapter 52 Section 36 Para 3 (b). I therefore, contest that it would not have been oblivious to me that I was contravening the quarantine times of the bus lane.

I would like to remind you that the first sign at the time of the incident was not perpendicular to on coming traffic therefore the sign and the information contained thereon was not clearly visible. The second sign was not visible at all. Therefore, it is overwhelmingly obvious that these signs were clearly not obvious to any oncoming traffic.

This issue obviously seems to be one of my word against that of Officer XXXXXX, on the events of that day. The PSNI have not put forward any corroborating evidence other than the events put forward by Officer XXXXXX. At what point does the evidence I have provided, be given the credibility it deserves by the PSNI. I again state that this is a breach of Articles 6 & 7 of The Human Rights Act 1998.

Can the PSNI confirm to me what more evidence is required by a motorist to prove their innocence?
If this matter is not resolved justly and to my satisfaction then the only conclusion, I as a citizen and motorist can draw is that the PSNI are using the innocent motorist and the motorist in general as a source of income.
My confidence therefore in the PSNI to deal justly with such maters has been severely dented!

The PSNI know the motorist will always have reluctance to take the issue to court as the motorist is not familiar with the court system and procedures and the motorist will be at a distinct disadvantage in the court environment.
Moreover, the perception rightly or wrongly is that the courts will always find in favour of the PSNI and larger fines with costs are likely to be handed down against the motorist.
This is why it is important that the PSNI deal with such maters justly, before the need to go to court, especially when the overwhelming weight of evidence has proved in favor of the motorist before the issue has to go to court.

The stance the PSNI are taking over this matter smacks of Bullying, and I feel it is a breach of my Human Rights, in Articles 6 & 7 of The Human Rights Act 1998.

In closing and with reference to their summing up in their correspondence, I feel I have set out in my original correspondence and again here, and with the photographic evidence corroborated by the PSNI issuing officer. The Information signs containing the bus lane times were not perpendicular to the road and therefore the signs cannot be clearly obvious.

Therefore, the signs I feel breach the Road Traffic Act 1988 Chapter 52 Section 36 Para 3 (b). I therefore, contest that it would not have been oblivious to myself that I was contravening the quarantine times of the bus lane. I also felt the actions taken by the PSNI in this matter have contravened my Human Rights under Articles 6 & 7 of the Human Rights Act 1998.

I feel I have proven beyond all reasonable doubt and by their own omission in their first correspondence the PSNI have stated that the signs were not, perpendicular to the road therefore the signs by their own omission are incorrectly positioned and therefore not clearly visible.

However the PSNI still would not set aside the issuing of the Fixed penalty.

I now feel the only just outcome is the revoking of this
Fixed Penalty N XXXXXXX and the reimbursing of my £30 Fixed penalty fine paid by me without prejudice before the 21-day payment period was up.


Yours sincerely


Ranger1640


enc.

1. As I stated in my first correspondence I do not contest I was driving in the bus lane.

2. The PSNI State in their correspondence that the signs at the entrance to the bus lane were warning signs. This is not correct they are traffic information signs. I refer you to Road Traffic Act 1988, The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 1994 and the Highway Code Signs and Markings section. Warning signs are mostly Triangular in shape. Information signs are Rectangular.

3. The PSNI also state in their correspondence that there are road markings indicating the bus lane. I do not contest the fact that there are road markings and in my first correspondence, I referred to the fact that the words BUS LANE were located at the start of the bus lane. However, the road markings work in conjunction with the traffic Information signs.

4. The road markings do not contain or inform the driver of the times of the bus lane. This is why there are Information Signs positioned at the entrance to the bus lane.

5. As stated in my correspondence and acknowledged by the PSNI in their correspondence. I did move into lane 2 at XXXXXX Park. This was a result of observing the quarantine times for the next section of the bus lane on the properly positioned perpendicular to the road third sign. On observing the information, I therefore immediately moved into lane 2.

6. The reference in their correspondence that the traffic in lane 2 was lead by a vehicle bearing L-plates is totally irrelevant. The Fixed Penalty issued was for driving in the bus lane during the operating times of that bus lane, and not for undertaking the L-plated driver.

7. As stated in their correspondence the officer does not contest that the first 2 signs were not perpendicular (90°) to oncoming traffic. Can the officer confirm if he noted at the time of the incident the position of these signs at the entrance to this stretch of bus lane? Alternatively, was this only brought to his attention by my diligence and in my first correspondence?

8. Furthermore, to the above I would like to state that the officer did not refer to the incorrect positioning of the first two signs at the entrance to this section of the bus lane at the time of the incident.

9. The officer however did make a general reference to the effect that there were signs at the entrance to all bus lanes.

10. In the PSNI’s first correspondence, the issuing officer stated that the first sign was at an approximately 45° angle. This I feel is a matter of conjecture.

11. Can the PSNI confirm if the officer returned to make that measurement? For that measurement to be used as a material fact as stated in their correspondence it would need to be a correct measurement?

12. The only issue I feel that has any relevance or bearing, is that both signs on entering this section of bus lane were not perpendicular (90°) to oncoming traffic. (Please refer to the Photos enclosed)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9717614@N02/?saved=1

13. I would furthermore remind you that the second sign is there to reinforce the information on the first sign. This sign was turned through a full 90° inwards facing 180° to the road. It was therefore impossible to know, not only what type of sign this was, but it was also therefore impossible to read the information contained thereon.

14. My understanding of this type of signage is to inform. I refer you again to the Road Traffic Act 1988, The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 1994 and the Highway Code Signs and Markings. Properly positioned signage perpendicular to the road would permit drivers to observe the signage from the required distance and to act on the information contained thereon.

15. If road signage is not perpendicular to on coming traffic, drivers therefore need to alter their driving position to read all the information contained thereon. In addition, if the driver has to spend a greater time concentrating on the inappropriately positioned signs and reading the information contained thereon, then an increase in traffic accidents will be the inevitable outcome.

16. This emphasises the point why it is important that the driver’s attention is not distracted from the road instead of trying to read inappropriately positioned signage.

17. Do inappropriately positioned signs fit into the PSNI’s road safety campaigns?

18. Therefore if we take the PSNI’s theory of inappropriately positioned signage through to its final conclusion. There will be no need for properly positioned signs. Therefore we will not require Road Traffic Acts and Traffic Laws.

19. If the aim of the PSNI is to have inappropriately positioned signage as its policy then we can expect nothing less than road carnage as the only outcome!

20. The driver needs to act on all the information contained on the information signs. Therefore if the drivers, driving position has to be altered they could be a danger to other road users or pedestrians!(I refer to the practice of rubber necking at motorway accidents)

21. I would expect that all PSNI Urban Traffic Unit drivers are expertly trained, experienced and professional drivers. I therefore would expect that any competent PSNI officer from the Urban Traffic Unit should be observant as part of their duties. Therefore should they not have observed that these signs were not perpendicular to the road and therefore inappropriately positioned. And then the officer would have known that the information contained thereon was not clearly visible and therefore he should not have issued a fixed penalty, under the Road Traffic Act 1988 Chapter 52 Section 36 Para 3 (b) “To have been lawfully so placed, unless the contrary is proved”.

22. If there is a failure in the observance of officers in the Urban Traffic Unit. Then it is the PSNI’s responsibility to remove these officers from duty until they have received further training as required on observation!

23. From the time of the incident and my first communication, I would have considered that the officer would have had a Duty of Care to inform the Department of Regional Development Roads Service. To inform Roads Service that these road signs where not properly positioned perpendicular to the road!

24. May I remind you that we as road users all have a Duty of Care to ourselves and others. As part of that Duty of Care and as the PSNI are public servants, I would have considered that the PSNI took this responsibility extremely seriously. This responsibility would form part of the PSNI’s professionalism and continuing campaign on road safety. Therefore, I would assume that any PSNI officer fulfilling their Duty of Care to themselves and the public would have reported at their earliest opportunity any inappropriately positioned road traffic signs!

25. As off 07/08/07, no report was forwarded to Roads Service form the PSNI. I therefore confirmed to Roads Service the location and position of these signs. As of 21/8/07, the signs are still not properly positioned.

26. I would also like to refer to their correspondence as to the distance at which they state the information contained on the first incorrectly positioned sign can be read from. They state that the information can be observed from 15-20m. This is another area of conjecture.

27. Unless the issuing officer returned to make that measurement mentioned above, it is again a matter of conjecture. I however did return to take photographs and measurements as evidence against the issuing of the fixed penalty and measured the distance the information could be read from and it is less than 10 metres. How can this be if it is not perpendicular to the road?



28. I would like to bring to your attention that a motor vehicle travelling at 30mph covers a distance of 13.4 metres per second. Working on the 15-20m they state in their correspondence, I would have at 15m 1.2 seconds to see the sign and read the information and at 20m, I would have 1.5 seconds to do like wise. All this while concentrating on my speed, other road users, pedestrians and the road conditions.

29. Do the PSNI approve of the times stated above as appropriate times for any driver not just a competent driver to observe an information sign?

30. The driver must observe and take the appropriate action required. This after observing the information contained on the traffic sign. This is in relation to the 2-second rule for braking.

31. Can the PSNI forward any reference in law, Road Traffic Act’s or Orders or in the codes of practice of the Highway Code? Where inappropriately positioned signage is suitable for use on the carriageway and the observation times (15m 1.2 seconds and 20m 1.5 seconds) stated are appropriate?

32. Can the PSNI confirm if it is the PSNI’s policy to enforce all fixed penalties irrespective of any inappropriately positioned signs or mitigating circumstances?

33. As I understand it, the issuing of a fixed penalty for a motoring offence is an absolute offence. However, can the PSNI confirm my understanding in law that if there is reasonable doubt for any offence it is to be given to the defendant and does this apply to Road Traffic offences?

34. I feel I have set out and proven beyond all reasonable doubt (Road Traffic Act 1988 Chapter 52 Section 36 Para 3 (b)). That there is reasonable doubt over the correct positioning of the 2 information signs at the entrance to this section of bus lane. Also by their own omission in their correspondence the PSNI have stated that the signs were not perpendicular to the road therefore the signs are incorrectly positioned.

35. I refer you again to the Road Traffic Act 1988 Chapter 52 Section 36 Para 3 (b) I feel I have overwhelmingly proven and provided the photographic evidence corroborated by the PSNI that these signs were not properly positioned so therefore there is reasonable doubt. To Quote the Road Traffic Act 1988 Chapter 52 Section 36 Para 3 (b): “To have been lawfully so placed, unless the contrary is proved”. Therefore I would consider the only just outcome to the issuing of fixed penalty notice N XXXXXXX is for a revoking of the fixed penalty and a return of the £30 fine paid without prejudice before the 21-day payment period.


36. I would also like to point out there are no references to the Fixed Penalty Notice offence code N052 issued to me on the PSNI web site.

37. Can you confirm that this code exists and if the correct Fixed Penalty Code was quoted on the Fixed Penalty issued? If the wrong Fixed Penalty code is quoted on the issued Fixed Penalty Notice, is the Fixed Penalty therefore invalid as the Fixed Penalty code does not refer to the alleged offence committed.

38. I also take issue with the way the events of the incident were recorded by the issuing officer. I was stopped and questioned then after the issuing of the Fixed Penalty I was then cautioned by the issuing officer.

39. I feel this is a breach of my Human Rights under Articles 6 & 7 of The Human Rights Act 1998. I feel I should have been informed by the issuing officer that I was to be cautioned before I was asked any questions. Therefore, I could have taken up my right to remain silent. I feel that to use any remarks I stated before my caution is therefore a breach of Articles 6 & 7 of The Human Rights Act 1998.



http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1988/uk ... 80052_en_1
Road Traffic Act 1988 Chapter 52 Section 36
36 Drivers to comply with traffic signs:
(1) Where a traffic sign, being a sign—
(a) of the prescribed size, colour and type, or
(b) of another character authorised by the Secretary of State under the provisions in that behalf of the [1984 c. 27.] Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984,
has been lawfully placed on or near a road, a person driving or propelling a vehicle who fails to comply with the indication given by the sign is guilty of an offence.
(2) A traffic sign shall not be treated for the purposes of this section as having been lawfully placed unless either—
(a) the indication given by the sign is an indication of a statutory prohibition, restriction or requirement, or
(b) it is expressly provided by or under any provision of the Traffic Acts that this section shall apply to the sign or to signs of a type of which the sign is one;
and, where the indication mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection is of the general nature only of the prohibition, restriction or requirement to which the sign relates, a person shall not be convicted of failure to comply with the indication unless he has failed to comply with the prohibition, restriction or requirement to which the sign relates.
(3) For the purposes of this section a traffic sign placed on or near a road shall be deemed—
(a) to be of the prescribed size, colour and type, or of another character authorised by the Secretary of State under the provisions in that behalf of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, and
(b) (subject to subsection (2) above) to have been lawfully so placed,
unless the contrary is proved.
(4) Where a traffic survey of any description is being carried out on or in the vicinity of a road, this section applies to a traffic sign by which a direction is given—
(a) to stop a vehicle,
(b) to make it proceed in, or keep to, a particular line of traffic, or
(c) to proceed to a particular point on or near the road on which the vehicle is being driven or propelled,
being a direction given for the purposes of the survey (but not a direction requiring any person to provide any information for the purposes of the survey).
(5) Regulations made by the Secretary of State for Transport, the Secretary of State for Wales and the Secretary of State for Scotland acting jointly may specify any traffic sign for the purposes of column 5 of the entry in Schedule 2 to the [1988 c. 53.] Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 relating to offences under this section (offences committed by failing to comply with certain signs involve discretionary disqualification).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 21:15 
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Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 21:05
Posts: 57
Feck'n PSNI hypocrites!!!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7180564.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6702339.stm


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 Post subject: Re: Anal PSNI
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 21:43 
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Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 21:05
Posts: 57
Just to give you the latest up date on my dispute with the PSNI, I have been given my £30 back and had the fixed penalty revoked by the Courts Service NI.

After I requested a review of the evidence that I had sent to the PSNI, so with an Ulsterman’s determination I won in the end. Pity it took them over a year to get there act together.

A victory for the common man!




ranger1640 wrote:
Below is a letter is sent to the PSNI after being issued with a fixed penalty for driving 77m in a bus lane.

17th May 2007


Dear Sirs,


On Friday 11th May 2007 at 1640 hrs approx, I was issued with a fixed penalty fine for driving in a bus lane during the operating times of the bus lane.

Fix Penalty Serial Number Vehicle registration

I would like to request that the issuing of this fixed penalty is reviewed before the 21 days of the fixed penalty has expired. I feel there are circumstances that the PSNI officer did not take into consideration before issuing the fixed penalty.

The incident took place on the Antrim Road Belfast. The location of the bus lane is a 77m stretch between Strathmore Park and Innisfayle Park Belfast.

A PSNI officer from the Urban Traffic Unit issued the fixed penalty. At the time of the issuing of the fixed penalty the first two bus lane signs indicating the times for the bus lane were not at right angles to the road, therefore making it difficult to observe the signs and furthermore making it difficult to read the information on the signs.

The first sign located 31m before the bus lane and was turned through nearly 90 degrees outward facing the road. Making it difficult to observe and therefore difficult to read any information contained on the sign. The second sign was turned through a full 90 degrees inward facing the footpath, making it impossible to know what type of sign it was and impossible to read any of the information on the sign.

It was not until you passed the second sign and you entered the bus lane that there was BUS LANE written on the road. Therefore, if you could not see the sign or read the information on the first two signs, it would not have been until the third sign that you would have known the bus lane times.

The first two signs are sited 140m and 171m respectively from the North Circular Road, Antrim Road junction. The third sign is 275m from the same junction and 135m from the first sign. Only 77m is bus lane from the second sign at Strathmore Park to before the third sign at Innisfayle Park with a break of 28m for a left turn into Innisfayle Park.
(Please refer to the photos enclosed and line diagram)

When I observed the third bus lane sign, which was in the correct position at a right angle to the road facing the on coming traffic. I noted that I was in the bus lane during the bus lane operation and I immediately moved out into the outside lane.

It was a further 150m beyond the third sign when I had halted at the traffic lights at the Waterloo Park, Donegall Park Avenue and Antrim Road junction that the PSNI officer stopped me in the outside lane. He then signalled for me to go back into the near side lane and issued the fixed penalty, thus blocking the bus lane.

At this point, the officer questioned me and asked if I had seen the signs on entering the bus lane. I said I had not seen the signs or the times on entering the bus lane. It was only at the properly positioned sign approximately 150m behind the point that I was pulled over that I had observed and noted that I was in the bus lane during the quarantine period and hence my manoeuvre into the outside lane.

When I explained to the officer that when I did observe the sign and the times I immediately moved out into the outside lane out of the bus lane, the officer insisted that I should have seen the first two signs.

The officer replied I should have seen the signs with the times of the bus lane as they are sited at the entrance to this bus lane. However, the officer did not take me back to show me these signs at the entrance to the bus lane. The officer then asked, if I was a regular user of the road and did I know the times of the bus lane to which I replied no.

After issuing the fixed penalty, the officer ‘cautioned’ me and informed me that I had 21 days to pay the fixed penalty.

On my return journey home, I noted that the signs were not at right angles to the road and on coming traffic, therefore they are difficult if not imposable to see or read any information contained on the sign. I returned and took photographs of the signs as evidence against the issuing of the fixed penalty. (Please refer to the photos enclosed)


I feel that I cannot be held responsible if street furniture is not positioned correctly at right angles to the oncoming traffic giving the road user a chance to firstly observe the sign, read the information contained on the sign and make any necessary manoeuvre to comply with the sign.

In closing, I would like to say if the PSNI officer from the Urban Traffic Unit had been as observant as he was efficient at handing out the fixed penalty. He would have observed that the first two bus lane signs were not at right angles to the oncoming traffic and therefore difficult to see and read any information contained thereon, and not have assumed that I had purposely drove past the first two bus lane signs, thus breaking the bus lane quarantine!

My understanding for the purpose of these signs is to inform the oncoming driver of the times of the bus lane quarantine. I cannot be expected to know all the times of every bus lane quarantine, hence the need for signs. These signs have firstly to be seen and the information contained on these signs has to be observed to be acted on, this while concentrating on the road ahead, road conditions, other road users and while watching your speed to keep within the legal speed limit for the road and not be a danger to yourself or other road users.
If these signs are not positioned correctly at right angles to the road facing the oncoming traffic it is impossible for any driver to do all of the actions required above and to keep themselves and other road users safe.

If road users are expected to do all of the actions mentioned above and to watch out for inappropriate signage then road carnage will be the only outcome!

The photos enclosed were taken on Saturday 12th May 2007 as were the dimensions as to the siting of the street furniture and the total distance of the incident.

Since this incident I have received legal advice, quoting the above, and have been recommended to proceed in the manner I am. Under the circumstances and the evidence I have shown I would consider it only just to have this ‘fixed penalty’ ticket revoked.

Should you need to contact me other than by mail my mobile number is.

I look forward with anticipation to your early comments in respect of the above.


Yours sincerely


enc.

Below you will find the anal replay from the PSNI and pics of the signs

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9717614@N02/?saved=1


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