Safe Speed Forums

Doesn't it strike you as more than a trifle odd that despite 250,000 page views a month, no one - and I mean no one has found any 'specious reasoning'?

And, btw, I can meet ANY (road safety / Safe Speed / etc.) argument without resort to sophistry.



Have a good trip. I'm sorry to hear that you will be travelling at far below the maximum safe speed according to the conditions from time to time.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

..but even if you do see us in time, you think you are driving safely and the laws pertaining to speed limits don't apply to you so you break the limit anyway...Kerching...another numpties piggy bank broken.

Did I miss something? Are you SCP staff?

Does this mean you endorse travelling at, for example, 170mph in a Porsche 911 Turbo on a motorway in uterly clear conditions? Would you complain if a Police officer nicked you in the process?

we know you consider anything over 5mph "eye watering" (you really do need to learn how to close those windows) but driving to the conditions seems to work ok for the Germans...

Endorse? Of course not. Funny choice of words... is this supposed to be a trap?

I will roundly condemn anyone who says that legal reasons for setting speeds are sometimes more important than safety reasons for setting speeds. Are you one of those?



If I got nicked at 170mph, in your fantasy world, I would see it as a publicity opportunity.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

But because I always drive safely AND exercise COAST, there's no reason why you should get your hands on my piggy bank or stick points on my spotlessly clean licence!

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

...but we do because quite a lot of you don't...drive safely using COAST, and those who do, seem to use your undoubted excellent driving skills as an excuse to flout the law because you don't happen to believe it is either up to date or pertaining to your way of driving...whilst you think that way and break the law as it stands you will carry on paying the House of Commons bar bills and pay for the Treasury Xmas parties for the foreseeable future.

People have been known to fail test for not driving at the speed limit. The kittens' driving instructors (for all three of our eldest all seemed to insist they drive at speed limit in good normal condition und demonstrate stil that they can use gears appropriately.

I think perhaps we are teaching the "target" und not "limit" in mindset of our kids sometimes


(They now 18 und the eldest 20 in couple of weeks I feel pride und yet a sad feeling as they turn to adulthood. Still I can look forward to being a "wicked Grandma" sometime but hopefully when they settle in career )

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Steviebabes Liebchen I think you are he or his type- only as you use an argument that he once use over COAST


COAST you misunderstand. It not a "recipe" for fastest most spirited drive. It the guideline which can help determine safest driving plan which also mean choice of safest speed und position for the road condition as it develop in front of you. It rarely mean "deliberate blat" It normally mean you saw the lolly und comply near enough to it und definitely under at speed cam which you spot by virtues of COA too

Safety mean being able to stop in distance you can see to be clear ahead of you including the ever-changing limit point. I had this skill pre-incident. IG was in charge of my driving when I was passed fit und well again. He teach me as if one of his "rats" He was hardest teacher to please though. Stricter than my own Papa It seem COAST ist older than we think.


But do I speed. I post on PH that if I do so by widest margin - it would be deliberate. In Germany - I will drive according to traffic flows. Sometimes this mean driving for blats at a speed which make my Jag positively purr as if he drink top of one of your gold top pints of milk.

He hold his own with the stealth Mercs over there. . He show why the marque should continue in excellence into future (My cars are always blokey blokes. Mad Doc's cars are wimmin. I think we are a good match for each other as kindred spirits. I guess am very lucky to marry such a man)

But sometimes you accelerate to get out of bother.

I post this up on PH in reply to liebsten von whom I do like from his posts. He ist a gentleman who never get riled by a reply. To some he seem like granite. But I see a nice bloke all the same but one who consider he must post letter of law regardless of what he really think. I read between lines.

But enough of praising von who ist respected by me and would also command respect from the ugliest trollster on the internet.

I post up how I cruise at 70 mph. I set control mode. I am driving through scam territory after all. I overtake a convoy of caravans. Just as I draw level with the leader of the convoy und my rear wing in line with front wing of his car und intend to move into gap in L1 once past at my 70 mph. Remember such cars with caravans are limited to 60 mph.

He very illegally accelerate to prevent my return to L1. If I stay at 70 mph we neck und neck und ist dangerous feel at that point. A light tough on the throttle und my "toy boy called Jag" respond accordingly. Within split second we up to 79 mph und I pass the idiot und return to L1 with decent courtesy gap to him und my slight foot movement return this lovely feline I am in charge of back to decentest legality.

To do otherwise would have compromised safety. My one second of 79 -81 mph per origin was the safety led option.

So if I do deliberately break a speed limit - then it more to do with safety than a blatant disregard of safety und the law.

But I know that my drive will fluctuate to marginally above/below. Because I am normal human being.

But C O A S T. It not name in Cycle Craft - but Franklin's diagram/writing ist as IG say - pretty darned close.

Roadcraft say O A P ( Observe/Anticipate/Plan)

BUT IG made a post asking what PLAN mean. It really mean make a decision by creating SPACE/TIME to anticipated hazard All C O A S T do ist extend O A P per Road Craft. But it more memorable to human pyche und equate to "Clunk Click Every Trip" if promoted right

Ist about safety. All about safety.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Well, at least you're honest about it mate! I'd feel pretty repulsed if you'd come on here trying to say you were doing it to make our roads safer! (you know, what with NOT actually making them safer & all that)!

Wildcat...yeah right, whatever...I suppose you mean well but we are not in Germany...and I am not ?'steviebabes' ?...Sorry to disappoint....I may think like they person you have in mind..dunno, I don't actually know who it is so I shall have to trust your judgement on that.

Unfortunately (for some) we are in the UK where ALL our roads DO have speed limits ...unlike your German autobahns. The UK has limits and laws to uphold those limits.
In the UK it is against the law (until they change it) to exceed the posted speed limit. Like it or not ...it is.

A lot of people don't like speed limits ...no that's wrong ...a lot of people don't like being told what to do by (to use a well worn cliche') "a tin sign with a number painted on it".
Not everyone is as good a driver as they would like to think they are, and I include everyone in that statement...So what happens?
The 'powers that be' tell us that they believe after studying all the evidence they gather, that a certain speed is deemed to be the MAXIMUM safe speed for a particular area....is what happens. They don't tell you that you MUST travel at that speed they tell you to use a bit of savvy and travel at a speed that you feel is safe but not to exceed the limit they have imposed.
Now that information may be out of date, but until the law is changed or the speed limit reviewed...it remains against the law to exceed that limit.

They employ Police officers and deploy speed cameras to help enforce the law covering the limit (as it stands)...because they know there will always be rebels who decide for whatever reason that laws are not applicable to him/her. By their actions or inactions these rebels may just put themselves or others in harms way.
If the authorities fail to punish those who transgress the law it may give the impression to everyone else that the law doesn't matter. Pretty soon the lunatics would be in charge of the asylum.

Some say cameras are merely money spinners aimed at boosting the treasury's coffers at the expense of the poor motorist.
I would have to agree, up to a point, that this would seem a logical conclusion if you found yourself, or someone whom you considered a safe and otherwise careful driver as the recipient of a £60 fine and a 3 point endorsement for breaking the law by exceeding a speed limit. Indeed you may have no direct reason for disliking speed cameras save that you feel they are an unfair medium by which to police the speed limits.

On the other hand, to those who see vehicles slowing down on approach to a camera, that so-called "scamera" is doing the job it was installed to do...namely slow the traffic down and in so doing perhaps prevent an accident. There are arguments for and against the safety reason too...I prefer to subscribe to the idea that speed cameras DO help to make our roads safer.
I don't use facts or figures to help me come to that conclusion, nor do I subscribe to a point of view because everyone else seems to...no; I have personally witnessed before and after speed camera deployment scenarios, and I have seen traffic slowing down on approach to a camera location where once 'silly speeds' were the order of the day. I have witnessed people dying, even picked up body parts, consoled friends and relatives where exceeding the speed limit was a contributory factor in someone's demise. A few speed cameras get installed and the incidences of my "expertise" being needed falls...I call that some pretty good evidence of speed cameras doing a good job.

Now I'm not advocating the powers that be got it 100% right or wrong in every deployment of a speed camera, I'm not saying speed cameras are a good thing in every instance or a bad one.
What I am saying is that from my personal point of view, like the law or loathe it, like cameras or loathe them, like the Bib or loathe them...until the laws are changed and unless we motorists want to swell those treasury coffers further, the best way to protest against so called 'scameras' IMPO, is to simply abide by the laws and keep within the posted speed limits. If there is no cash coming in, the scam (if indeed there is one) backfires on the scammers.

Now I suppose you will all rally around close ranks and rubbish my beliefs because they don't marry up with your own, (as I watched happen so many times before) or attempt by argument (reasoned or otherwise) to change the meanings of what I have written around to suit your own agendas...that's fine...'have at it' if you feel so threatened by a different point of view.
You are entitled to believe anything you want, I would be the last person to attempt to convert you away from whatever you believe to be true.
But be aware that just as you retain the right to voice your opinions, I likewise retain the right to do likewise & the points I have raised just happen to be some of mine.
No I'm not a troll, nor do I wish to convert anyone...just voicing my personal opinion is all like everyone else does on this and many other sites.

If only that were true. Here in Suffolk they put 30mph limits in all villages. That sounds fine in theory but we now have the crazy situation of wide 'A' roads with 30 limits past a handful of houses. The 30 LIMIT is BELOW the MINIMUM speed that any normal driver would want to travel at. It is nowhere near the MAXIMUM SAFE speed. You can guess where the camera parasites sit can't you.

It isn't true. It isn't even remotely true. See: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... 891#144891

If the limits were set for an average driver they would be too high for a novice.

If the limits were set for good weather they would be too high in bad weather.

And on and on.

Anyway, Elandgone, are we supposed to guess that you are SCP or BiB?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Do you think 'the powers that be' used the 85th percentile rule to set the limit?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

YUP! Definitely workes for a SCP - I've seen this "logic" before!



...seen that statement somewhere before too...

As you say mate, we're all free to believe what we want to believe and if YOU really believe (despite the national facts & figures) that speed cameras are doing a good job, fair enough!

Your're right about the law being the law though. Best uphold that at all costs - even the odd human life isn't too high a price to pay eh?!

It just that Steviebabes or the "Submarinated One" used to post on PH. I used to tease him when he appear. He used to get his torpedoes in a right lather as COAST would scupper "Das Boot"

(It little joke between us as ist the unexploded dougnut thing with a BiB on PH. The "submarinated thing" ist because Steviebabes used to be in Navy serving on submarines. He now our "SpeedFinder General" )

I never offensive to him though. I think he not take offence und see the gentle teasing as he post up some generally helpful stuff back to both me und Mad Doc over some other daft issues which compromise safety around here.





Actually all Germans are supposed to take out an insurance surcharge if they want to drive at the higher speeds. If they have accident at above 81.25 mph (which ist the NSL for them) , then they may not be insured. It can be very expensive for whoever liable. Most do. It also a way of ensuring that the newly qualifieds stay at no more than 81.25 mph.

Lane discipline/ mirror use/ COAST all marked strictly on the German test. You have to demonstrate a very precise OAP/PSL/MSM/COAST pattern throughout their test from start to finish.

They police it with mix of marked/unmarked cars on all A/Bahn. They also have CCTV monitoring entire stretches. If someone mishaves - then the CCTV ist used against them. They certainly do not tolerate downright OTT stupidity on the derestricted A/Bahn.


In the congested areas like Rhein/Ruhrgebiet /Munich proximity - they have limit of 130 kph, which in your "currency" ist 81.25 mph. This more or less the standard in EU mainland including Switzerland. There are odd Italian stretches of 140 kph (87 mph) und Austria has one A/Bahn which allow you to "ton it"

But they do as Germany. If not safe for condition - they let you know in no uncertain terms.




They also have scams abroad. But they fine for medium blips. They do not issue points immediately. If person get to halfway point - then letter has to be sent to tell the person they halfway to a ban und tell themto "be careful und recommend course or other advice to improve". If this not sent at that stage - German court cannot ban the driver on tot-up.

They also allowed to see the evidence before admitting they caught on camera too. That ist a big difference. (It does have something to do with Data Protection of "mistress/toy boy/ bit on side" )





But there are too many roads whereby limit down graded for no real reason. There are other road which have higher speed limit than right for reality too.


I have asked sisters/brothers-in-law/rest of family to take us photos of the roads they find to have daft limit so we can put them on hoster to show you all.

It cause confusion in reading road/dangers for so many. Road speed limit then should be set according to road und conditions of its stretch. I happen to think Germany/Austria/Italy/France/Switzerland have it about right overall from urban to A/Route/Bahn/Strada..









Downgrading a road to a lower speed limit/whacking up a scamera does not improve a driving standard though?

Teaching COAST or trying to motivate a constant desire to improve the skill/learn how to use the in-car safety gadgets properly - with some carrot to encourage this would do far more. It very possible to have accident whilst driving to the lolly. Because attention not paid to COAST values




Only we have more scams than Police Officers. Far more use Handy phones than ever before as no one cops them. If copped for not being insured - no real action taken und they continue with another equally dangerous chuck-away.

These people if pinged - have points put on ghost licence. It not matter to them one iota.

In meantime Mr Mild Mannered Blip get points on licence whilst Mr Dangerous Blat slow down for scamera as observed on episode of Traffic Cops when Cheshire had a meaningful RPU. (A subsequent episode showed how thing deteriorate since the RPU downsized drastically )

It not actually doing that much for safety in real terms und I do see more und more behaving like twazaks as result (In-law run off road the other day. Fortunately no damage but a bit of T-Cut/polish und elbow grease will put right to "good as new". Bad overtake. Overtaker mis judge badly und then moved in on the overtakee who had to move out of way to avoid prang even though he'd slowed up to well below lolly sign to assist overtake und create a space for him ).



Liebchen
Slamming on the anchors on sight of a scamera und then acccelerating away to above lolly sign ist not my idea of a scamera "preventing an accident"

Far better to drive to COAST - not too fast but not necessarily too slow in a line of free flowing traffic at reasonable pace.

In fact - the COAST driver ist probably the most compliant It why the DIS/Speed Course/German Driver Examiners like it so much



Und then speed back up to stupidity


Like the idiot on the Traffic Cops programme who ist more the norm than a one off for a BBC programme.



They not working.






The accidents are happening elsewhere. Do an FOI of the hospitals. We even have a now PEEER -R_R-REVIEWED paper from no less than OXFORD UNIVERSITY (published without peer review originally but the work has it now per the BMJ) showing that hospital stats are seeing up-turn in RTA/C incoming wounded. This not my idea of "scamera doing a good job"

All that happen ist that the danger move on to elsewhere or the scam not placed in danger spot in first place - as Kevin Delaney point out when he say that one scam matched all criteria in that 4 people died. They in the one car with no other vehicle involved when unlicenced idiot hit a lamp post Scam ist claimed to have 100% impact but at site where no accident occurred prior or since. It was in London. He was on telly und on radio when he said this.

By the way - Kevin Delaney was responsible for placing the other one on that road which ist indeed at a black spot near a blind bend.



I say invest in a useful GPS doo-dah as they alert to all black spots/schools/congestion charge zones und are more useful as result. They also accurate speedo too. Small und on dash - you see the speed und the road at same time.

But far better to train folk better und encourage them to continue to develop/improve/learn as constant - nicht?



We are not rubbishing your ideas Liebchen - but pointing out the other side of the argument

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Nor is it mine, but I didn't say that did I? I said I had witnessed vehicles slowing down.
If drivers are so inattentive as to not realise there is a speed camera ahead, it is not the fault of the camera it is a fault with the drivers' ability or possibly a failing in his/her vision.

On roads where there are many ranges of driving competence, I believe you actually do need some kind of yardstick to show the not so good among us what is considered a safe maximum speed for a given stretch of road.
OK it won't suit everyone, but limits are (despite current beliefs) not set arbitrarily there will be a reason why a 60 mph limit is downgraded to a 40 or why a 30 is now a 20. It may not be readily apparent but a reason will exist...and before everyone chips in, that reason is (I believe) NOT to catch out the motorist but to serve a safety purpose.

I live in a mainly residential area where a 20mph limit is in place where once it was 30 and to enforce it we have traffic calming humps in the road because tin signs are ignored for the most part despite their prominence.

Casual visitors to the area may not see any need to have a 20 limit and may disagree with its efficacy.
But to those who live there 24/7 365-6 a year, we do see the need and are reaping the benefit of getting a good nights sleep as we are no longer woken up at 'silly o'clock' by screeching tyres as the local chavs race each other around the block, or worse still being woken to the sound of one of them misjudging their driving ability losing it and piling headlong into a row of parked cars.
We no longer wake up the next morning to find our wing mirrors smashed by some racing lunatic who got too close either. We can actually cross the road confidently knowing that the vehicle we see approaching won't be going fast enough to mow us down before we get across. The quality of life in our area has improved noticeably since the limit was reduced...In our case lower limits are working.
People who don't see the need for lowering a limit are normally those who would be feel the greatest amount of inconvenience at not getting to where they wanted to be 2 minutes quicker because the limit slowed them down.

Today life is lived at a breakneck pace...there are meetings to attend, customers to call on, our livelihoods may depend on 'getting there yesterday' or we may just want to whiz down to Tesco's for a bag of sugar and get home again before our coffee is cold!
We employ any means at our disposal to try and make that deadline, we don't like it if were are inconvenienced by authority wanting us to slow down...or by someone who is abiding by a posted limit. Slowing down is just not on the agenda for many who feel they are better equipped or need to go faster.

You may travel at well in excess to the posted limit on the same stretch of road quite safely (in your own opinion) day in day out without incident.
Someone else going at the same speed on that same road may just hit that nail that causes a blow-out and his car to flip over...but of course speed wasn't to blame for that...it was bad luck for him and the fact a nail was picked up in his tyres instead of yours. Someone else obeying the limit may pick up that nail and after a wrestling match of regaining control of his vehicle he gets out of the car changes the wheel and thanks whatever diety he believes in that he wasn't going any faster.
But the speed limit is still wrong because YOU traversed that road without incident.

The longer it takes for the driving populace to understand that exceeding the speed limit is not only punishable by a fine and points but on occasion by pain and anguish and yes,.. death, the more money the treasury will make from those who survive and the more business there will be for undertakers for those who don't.

I saw somewhere that the design speed of early German autobahns was 50mph. I've been on an early German autobahn at 125mph, but I didn't die.

The design speed of British motorways is 75mph. Lots of people drive along at 80mph, but they don't die.

What some people think is too fast is too slow for others. You just need to be democratic and go with what the majority think. I was going to say unless safety statistics say otherwise, but statistics can be and are fiddled, and so you need to look at the bare facts.

Just look at that "one third of accidents is caused by speeding" claim, which turns out to be something like "7.3% of accidents are caused by excessive speed". A big difference, and the former was used by the government to justify their cause, whereas the latter was the bare TRL finding.