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Dixie
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 09:50 
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Daily Telegraph

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Elderly motorists face extra tests to keep licences
By David Millward, Transport Correspondent
Last Updated: 1:51am BST 23/07/2007

Have your say: Should the Government single out older drivers?
New curbs could be introduced on older drivers under plans being considered by the Department for Transport.

It has asked the DVLA to produce a consultation paper on options of how to tighten the medical requirements for drivers over the age of 70.

A number of options are available. Mereddyd Hughes, the head of road traffic at the Association of Chief Police Officers, has called for the re-testing of drivers several times during their motoring career.

A survey by the Institute of Advanced Motorists 18 months ago showed that 70 per cent of older drivers would welcome refresher courses.

Another possibility could be asking doctors to assess elderly motorists when they renewed their licence, although there are fears that this might be difficult for the already stretched NHS.

A further option, which is considered more likely, is a pen and paper test. Andrew Howard, head of road safety at the AA, said: "It is incredibly hard to get a direct link between age and ability to drive. There are some people with Alzheimer's in their 70s and there are others in their 90s who are still incredibly spritely."

Suggestions that an upper age limit could be enforced were dismissed as "highly unlikely" by government sources last night.

There are 1.5 million drivers in Britain aged over 75.

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SafeSpeed
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:11 
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DfT really doesn't give a damn about evidence does it?

If they are determined to tighten controls on 'risk groups' (without effective roads policing in many areas) then why don't they target those who pay high insurance premiums?

Clearly the insurance companies are very good at identifying risky groups - and older drivers don't fall into one of those groups.

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malcolmw
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:22 
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Do you think the insurance companies use their payout costs per mile driven or just costs per year based on age?

Older drivers may have fewer accidents simply because they do less mileage. Perhaps we should all have to declare our annual mileage when renewing.

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Malcolm W.
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SafeSpeed
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:30 
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malcolmw wrote:
Do you think the insurance companies use their payout costs per mile driven or just costs per year based on age?

Older drivers may have fewer accidents simply because they do less mileage. Perhaps we should all have to declare our annual mileage when renewing.


But the risk to me comes from their crash risk per year not their crash risk per mile.

If older drivers' annual mileage drops (I believe that it does) then that really does reduce the risk they pose to everyone else.

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PeterE
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:39 
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malcolmw wrote:
Older drivers may have fewer accidents simply because they do less mileage. Perhaps we should all have to declare our annual mileage when renewing.

You're expected to inform your insurers of your expected annual mileage anyway. If it falls then you may be in line for a reduction in premium. On the other hand, if you'd been doing 6,000 miles a year and it went up to 20,000, and you did not inform them, your insurance could be invalidated for failing to declare a material fact.

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semitone
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:05 
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If older drivers' annual mileage drops (I believe that it does) then that really does reduce the risk they pose to everyone else.


You wouldn't say that if you had tried driving down Frinton High Street...

I take an alternative route now to avoid the antics of the coffin dodgers. I have seen the road blocked for five minutes by one old man trying to turn his car round by the 300 point turn method!
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Ernest Marsh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:37 
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semitone wrote:
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If older drivers' annual mileage drops (I believe that it does) then that really does reduce the risk they pose to everyone else.


You wouldn't say that if you had tried driving down Frinton High Street...

I take an alternative route now to avoid the antics of the coffin dodgers. I have seen the road blocked for five minutes by one old man trying to turn his car round by the 300 point turn method!

Unfortunately (or FORTUNATELY) that does not equate to risk.
In Cumbria we had a fatal accident where the GP had told the driver to get his eyes tested, but he failed to do so, and pulled out onto a busy main road and was killed by an oncoming car.
BAD health needs addressing across ALL age groups.
At present, nobody seems to police this aspect.
Maybe we ALL should have an MOT once every two years, and it might save more lives from such things as "the silent killer" which otherwise go undetected.

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semitone
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 13:18 
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Unfortunately (or FORTUNATELY) that does not equate to risk.


I don't agree with that. Their chances of killing someone are low because the speeds are very low, but they still manage to dent plenty of cars.
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malcolmw
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 13:42 
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What Semitone has described is observing a driver whose skills are clearly far below your own and below what is acceptable. Whether they have caused an accident (yet) is not relevant.

Should you report them like people do when they see a "boy racer" doing something stupid?

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Cooperman
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 14:36 
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Personally I think that all drivers should have a 'validation of ability to drive' test at 60 or 65 together with a medical test that includes eyesight, reaction time and blood-pressure. I don't advocate a full 'driving test' as applies to new drivers, but that an over-60 should be able to demonstrate awareness, control, anticipation and the ability to adapt to modern driving conditions. Failure of the practical driving test should result in a requirement for some formal training and a re-test within 3 months.
Before anyone has a go at me, I should remind you all that I'm a 66-year old who drives a Rover (no-one's perfect!).
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malcolmw
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 15:14 
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What did you have in mind including blood pressure in the go/no-go fitness test? Are you thinking of it as a predictor of strokes/heart attacks?

One of the problems with blood pressure is that what is "OK" is dictated by the latest Government health fad. For years my blood pressure was "normal". Suddenly, I need to get it down as the goalposts have moved while my actual pressure remains the same. Just one study claiming a correlation with early death is all it needs.

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Cooperman
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 17:23 
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malcolmw wrote:
What did you have in mind including blood pressure in the go/no-go fitness test? Are you thinking of it as a predictor of strokes/heart attacks?

One of the problems with blood pressure is that what is "OK" is dictated by the latest Government health fad. For years my blood pressure was "normal". Suddenly, I need to get it down as the goalposts have moved while my actual pressure remains the same. Just one study claiming a correlation with early death is all it needs.


I just remember that when I was younger and had my regular aircrew medicals, they took BP readings rested and after exercise and that this seemed to be important to the medics. Please don't ask me why, I'm not a medic, I'm an engineer. I do know that I take oil pressure as a measure of my engine's health!
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Ernest Marsh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 17:31 
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Does your engine face risk of early departure if the pressure is too high? :)

I'll expect a reply from Mad Moggie on this as it's his forte, but we are currently told that high BP is the silent killer, and I have no reason to doubt that - even if it doesnt kill everyone with it.

Ref. Semitone's experience - the drivers he describes are not killers, just sub standard. The proposals which triggered this thread are implying that elderly drivers are a risk to the publics safety, not their property. :oops:

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Big Tone
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 17:58 
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But isn't the riskiest group the under 25s? So why don't they target that group, with more training etc., which I'm sure comprises a much bigger threat to our roads than good ole' Harold doing 600 miles a year?

The elderly may dither a bit but at least they try to drive within their limits whereas the young don't dither and try to drive beyond their limit, sometimes.

(Was I just ageist?)

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botach
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 20:28 
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Big Tone wrote:

The elderly may dither a bit but at least they try to drive within their limits whereas the young don't dither and try to drive beyond their limit, sometimes.

(Was I just ageist?)


Perhaps the elderly are not dithering, but seeing a lot more to go wrong in a situation ,with the benefit of age. They may respect their car a bit more, and treat it with a bit more care , because it costs relatively more of their income to care for it.
Or perhaps they have nothing to prove in racing about ,needlessly- they could if they wished - but why now - they've done sliding round corners, trying to stop in poor conditions on drum brakes with no ABS ---etc etc, tackling poor roads in winter with only a shovel on cross ply tyres., and rear end drive a la BMC.(Predecessor to Austin Rover)

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Cooperman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:11 
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Ah, yes, the memories of driving a Healey 3000 across the Cotswolds at night in snow and ice, on Dunlop RS5 tyres (crossplies), with no LSD, no ABS, little de-misting capability, a Lucas dynamo to provide electrics, 195 bhp 'works spec' engine and only 3rd-party insurance as it was someone else's car. And I did it without crashing as well!
Now, at 66, I stick to rallying my Rover 214 Endurance-spec car and my 1964 Cooper 'S' Historic Rally Car and save my high-speed driving for those events. Of course, I do go out testing late at night on the very minor roads, but that's another matter.
Maybe the need will come for another driving test. Oh, to turn up in my rally car and when the examiner requests me to cause the vehicle to face in the opposite direction I could pull a neat handbrake-turn.
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Draco
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 01:05 
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Cooperman wrote:
Maybe the need will come for another driving test. Oh, to turn up in my rally car and when the examiner requests me to cause the vehicle to face in the opposite direction I could pull a neat handbrake-turn.


..........and when he asks you to demonstrate "car control", a fine demonstration of geriatric "Drifting" is in order Cooperman!

Once you ride a bike you NEVER forget eh? ...
:D

An' those who were "cr*p" young drivers will in time become....."CR*P" OLD DRIVERS!...
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anton
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 05:50 
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Older drivers do not need a driving test. but a medical.

The big question is at what age? My mate had an epileptic fit at 50 so fast he did not have time to put his coffee down. Elderly drivers generally don't have accidents. If they do it is down to confusion, eye sight, or serious health incident like a stroke or heart attack or epilepsy.

At what age do these things become a risk? 80, 70, 40. How often do they need testing? 10 years 2 years ?

I do believe that all drivers should have a FREE health check every five years (actually we all should get a 5 year check up) It would pick up some people who's sight, confusion, drink/drug habits make them unfit to drive.

I had a medical forced on me by my life insurance firm. It was the first time in 20 years someone had asked to checked my bloods and my blood pressure. Yet visually I am obviously in a high risk group. Since getting my blood pressure down I am a calmer driver. We do not look after men's health in this country.

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diy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 09:24 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
But the risk to me comes from their crash risk per year not their crash risk per mile.

If older drivers' annual mileage drops (I believe that it does) then that really does reduce the risk they pose to everyone else.


Both are very important. Its true that focusing on crash risk per year will have the best overall results, but those with a high exposure per mile also need to be helped.

Older drivers (and female drivers to that extent) need a wake up call that they are not the best/safest drivers on the road. There premiums are low because their exposure is low.

poor driving has consequences, even if it does not directly translate in to crash stats.
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Flying Dodo
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 19:25 
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diy wrote:

poor driving has consequences, even if it does not directly translate in to crash stats.


Good point. Is the answer to ensure that all drivers have to have regular re-tests, say every 5 years?
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