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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 19:26 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Stainless steel. It'd always be worth a respray, new upholstry or a new engine if the body was rot-free forever.


Image

Yep...you see them all the time........... :lol:

Anyhow I thought oil would have run out then anyhow...oops not that thread again.

Another case of the Lib Dims stating the "bleeding obvious". When are those guys going to stop looking stupid.

By then......and I will be long dead so what the hell, bio fuel will have taken over.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 20:06 
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Oh dear, this reminds me of the idea I've had in my head for over a year now and still haven't got around to posting. I'm sure I will soon... :)

How about a Stirling-Electric? Are Stirling engines good enough yet? Are there any running ones of the right sort of size?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 20:18 
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What about wood? I'm sure they used wood for a chassis on an old something and I bet it's as good today. (I'm thinking Morgan but I could be wrong)


<initiating anorak mode>

You're thinking of the Marcos - they had a laminated wooden chassis.

Morgans still have an ash body frame (except for the Aero 8 IIRC).

The wood on a Morris Minor Traveller is actually structural too - the body panels are fully supported by it and rot (or woodworm!) will get you an MoT fail - whereas the wood on the Mini Traveller was purely decorative.

Then again, there was the William Towns designed Hustler which had a substantially marine ply body in one incarnation.

<anorak mode off>

Then, of course, there was the man who built a completely wooden car:

Wooden chassis...

Wooden wheels...

Wooden gearbox...

Wooden engine...

Wooden go!!! :jester:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 21:09 
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Roger wrote:
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Rustless cars are extremely unlikely to be beyond economic repair (except due to crash damage).

There are other factors to consider too, principally advances in engfineering rendering older cars less desireable and therefore less cost-effective to repair, Case-in-point: the world is not full of Scimitars.


On the other hand the majority of Bristols ever made are still on the road...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 21:25 
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That's because Bristols are owned by people who can afford staff to attend to every need of the cars and themselves.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 22:13 
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There is also the 10 year servive. With air bags costing around £400 each and a volvo being fitted with 10 of them. If the 10 year service states they need replacing then the car needs to be worth more than £4000.

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“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 22:17 
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PeterE wrote:
In fact in many respects (particularly bodywork) cars are more durable than they ever have been.

I agree.

When I bought my first car it was approximately 10 years old and had covered about 50,000 miles. I picked that one after considering many others because the bodywork was in better than average condition, yet even so I had to do a fair amount of welding and renewing of wings, sills etc, and also the engine was pretty much life expired, so I fitted a reconditioned one about 3,000 miles later. I got a further two years motoring out of it then scrapped it as the bodywork had deteriorated yet further to a point where the thing was basically worthless.

If I bought a ten year old car now I'd expect to get one with pretty decent bodywork - certainly no structural rot - and it would likely have covered 100-120 k miles and be capable of another 50k without any major engine problems. Also, as long as you use the right people (or do it yourself) routine servicing is generally simpler and cheaper than it was 20 years ago.

On balance I'd say that the motor industry has served us pretty well in recent years. Ok, we all get a bit misty eyed and nostalgic about cars like BMC Minis and MK1 Escorts, but in reality their quality and reliability was bloody dreadful compared to pretty much any modern car.

Most cars these days get scrapped simply because they have become undesirable compared to newer replacements. Whilst we might whinge about the process of continual development that makes this so, at the same time we should recognise that it is this same process that has delivered cars that last twice as long as they used to.

And as for built in obsolescence, I think most manufacturers recognise that good residuals are an important factor in new car sales, and that to get good residuals you need to build cars that last well and therefore appeal to the used car buyer when they are ten years old.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 23:24 
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Ziltro wrote:
How about a Stirling-Electric? Are Stirling engines good enough yet? Are there any running ones of the right sort of size?


Stirling cycle engines are not going to find themselves into cars just yet. They are being developed for combined heat and power systems for buildings but are far to bulky to stick in a car. In any case you still have to burn something.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 23:46 
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Roger wrote:
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Rustless cars are extremely unlikely to be beyond economic repair (except due to crash damage).

There are other factors to consider too, principally advances in engfineering rendering older cars less desireable and therefore less cost-effective to repair, Case-in-point: the world is not full of Scimitars.


That's because they never made a world full of Scimitars.

But if there were a couple of million of rot-free Escorts, upgrade paths would emerge.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 23:51 
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Gizmo wrote:
Ziltro wrote:
How about a Stirling-Electric? Are Stirling engines good enough yet? Are there any running ones of the right sort of size?


Stirling cycle engines are not going to find themselves into cars just yet. They are being developed for combined heat and power systems for buildings but are far to bulky to stick in a car. In any case you still have to burn something.


The 'external combustion' for a stirling engine will lead to long slow response times to throttle changes. And that would be a very bad thing in a car. Stirling-electric might work at some point in the future.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 00:01 
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Mmm, I was thinking of basically an electric car with the Stirling engine as a generator. So the speed of the engine would be based on the amount of charge left in the battery. Hopefully it could be a smaller battery than in those Pious thingies. But what do I know about mechanics? Not a lot.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 00:10 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Roger wrote:
Quote:
Rustless cars are extremely unlikely to be beyond economic repair (except due to crash damage).

There are other factors to consider too, principally advances in engfineering rendering older cars less desireable and therefore less cost-effective to repair, Case-in-point: the world is not full of Scimitars.


That's because they never made a world full of Scimitars.

But if there were a couple of million of rot-free Escorts, upgrade paths would emerge.

I'm getting this mental image of a couple of 1971 Ford workers rubbing their chins over a MK1 Escort and one saying:

"We could make the bodywork out of stainless but there's no point as it won't pass NCAP as soon as they invent it..."

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 00:17 
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I agree with JT. There are lots of urban myths about major manufacturers wanting their cars to fall to bits on a particular date but it's not actually true - at least not as far as I've seen! Residual values are the important thing. Unfortunately, cars are getting (relatively) cheaper to buy than they once were but more expensive to maintain.

Having had a Scimitar, (and, indeed, several Reliants and other plastic cars) I am under no illusions as to their longevity! Fibreglass doesn't rust but lost of other things go wrong with it and I think the average Relaint used to get scrapped earlier than the average Escort.

It's also worth driving something really old just to remind ourselves how crap cars used to be. (Scimitars are a really good case in point)! Don't get me wrong, I was fond of mine but I wouldn't do 35,000 miles a year in one like I currently do in my 807! Even my beloved Alfa is actually noisier and less comfortable to drive on the motorway than a new 807 and 15 years ago, it would have been one of the better executive drives available!

Aside from the safety benefits of newer cars, we also have environmental benefits too. In fact, one vehicle that's famous for being durable is the LTI black cab. Bolt on panels, separate chassis and simple to work on. They can cover huge mileages and, like William the Conqueror's knife, can have several new blades and a couple of new handles during that long lifetime. Unfortunately, they are pretty awful to drive and one actually ends up in the situation where you WANT them to go to the scrapyard to make way for more environmentally friendly transport!

Lastly, stainless is a complete bugger to work and has it's own unique problems compared to carbon steels.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 13:20 
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It's stupid my local MP saying it, as very few cars will probably run on petrol in 2040 anyway. He's just blurting out hot air in his deep mumbly tone of voice.

Leaded petrol has been banned. However, by the time that happened unleaded petrol had been readily available and used in new cars for well over a decade, and there were very few leaded cars on the road.

How about banning CRT television sets in 2015? Just as stupid an arguement. LCD technology is developing and becoming evermore popular, and so we are naturally phasing out the old technology.

My family didn't vote for Chris Huhne at the last election by the way.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 13:26 
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anton wrote:
There is also the 10 year service. With air bags costing around £400 each and a volvo being fitted with 10 of them. If the 10 year service states they need replacing then the car needs to be worth more than £4000.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 13:34 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
But that's because the value of the car is affected by the degree of rust in the body/chassis. Rustless cars are extremely unlikely to be beyond economic repair (except due to crash damage).


There's more to it than that. Very often the perceived value has very little do do with the actual worth of the car as a useful vehicle. A five or six year old Hyundai may get 'written off' after an MOT failure even though bodily it'll be almost perfect and actually have very little wrong with it, simply because the parts and labour total will be a high percentage of the resale value of what is perceived to be an unpopular car.

Similarly a beat-up wreck of a BMW will not be written off, even if the cost of repair was twice or even three times that of the Hyundai, because the BMW would be seen to have more equity in it as a more desirable and therefor more valuable second hand car.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 18:48 
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lets face it guys who would want to do high mileage in a 30+ year old car.

No ABS
No power steering
No aircon
No remote central locking
Poor noise isolation
Poor vibration isolation
crap aerodynamics
crap brakes
crap interior
virtually no occupant protection

The same will be again in 30 years from now. our current cars will seem like antiques (Rover Ambassador anyone!)


Having a body that lasts 30 years will not keep cars on the road any longer.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 23:47 
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Absolutely! I think that because the evolution is such a gradual process, we forget just how much they've come on. My father-in-law still raves to me about his old Hillman Hunter and how they've never made a better car than that....

...I think if someone gave him a Hunter in pristine condition straight out of a museum, and took his new Skoda off him, he'd soon change his tune!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 00:26 
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I would love a rebuilt triumph 2.5pi estate.
Comfort power steering fast smooth elegant. :D

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 00:33 
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Plywood and 2CV running gear
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en ... ages&gbv=2


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