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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 08:32 
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BBC.co.uk wrote:
Is it possible to save the planet by sticking to the speed limit? The government's transport advisors think so.
The Commission for Integrated Transport argues that emissions from cars and lorries still outweigh by some way those from air travel, though aviation is growing as a source of carbon dioxide.


One remedy, the authors conclude in a report published on Wednesday, is for us drivers to have state-sponsored lessons in eco-motoring, an idea that would cost the government little but benefit the planet a lot.

The theory is that the way you drive can be as important as what you drive, and how much you drive it.

Smooth driving

By way of an experiment, we went to the Ford test track at Dunton in Essex, to break the speed limit.

Drive at 80mph on a motorway and it is claimed your car will pump out significantly more carbon dioxide than at 70.

With a technician plugged into the car's engine via a laptop, I drove a series of laps, maintaining 70 and then 80 on the two straightest sections.

The result? The car produced a third more CO2 getting from one end of the track to the other at 80 than it did at 70.

But there's more. Research suggests turning on the air conditioning uses 10% more fuel, therefore producing CO2.

Unfortunately keeping cool by lowering your car windows also increases fuel consumption, as does keeping the roof rack on after that family holiday.

Most of all, driving smoothly is the key to an environmentally-friendly motoring life.

Gentle on the accelerator, thinking ahead, judging the distance to the lights, and stopping without a jolt.

Ford's director of sustainability Andy Taylor says: "Our own analysis indicates that a driver can save around 25% of fuel consumption in a year.

"That will save around up to £200 a year, helping your wallet, but also making a material difference to the planet. At the end of the day for the vast majority of people, it's about the money."

However, the Commission for Integrated Transport (CFIT) wants action from companies like Ford as well as its customers.

By 2020, its report says, all cars should produce no more than 100g of CO2 per kilometre.

In other words, they'll all have to be roughly as green as the greenest production cars are now.

Flight taxes

Aviation doesn't escape either. Emissions trading - which forces airlines and airports to buy the right to produce CO2 - is a must, the report concludes.

And the government should be actively finding ways to make flying more expensive.

CFIT quotes a new Mori poll which suggests a growing number of air travellers accept the idea of higher taxes.

The commission's strategy is to find ways for the government to get more environmental bang for its buck.

It has predicted the measures would increase by 70% the CO2 savings proposed by the government's climate change programme.

In other words, the report says, the current plan to stabilise carbon emissions by 2020 would become one to reduce emissions by around 14%.

But the findings make clear there is a need for action at all levels - from the government, from companies, and from us, sitting at the wheel of our cars.

Leaving aside the link between emissions and ‘saving the planet’ – could we have our NSLs, which were reduced to 30/40/50, back up to NSL because that’s supposedly the most efficient travelling speed.

Being gentle on the gas isn’t necessarily the best way to increase mileage, you need to give it a good push then coast for a bit (especially when changing up through the gears). Besides, pussyfooting when accelerating contributes to congestion and increases travel time and therefore ..... emissions!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 09:27 
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And there is another version in this BBC report...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6990602.stm
Quote:
Eco-motoring 'can reduce carbon'

Car emissions depend on how a vehicle is driven
Motorists should be taught new driving techniques to reduce carbon emissions from their vehicles, a report suggests.

A report by the Commission for Integrated Transport also suggests new rules to ensure drivers can only buy the most fuel-efficient cars.

It also wants new cars to be as environmentally friendly by 2020 as the greenest cars which are currently available on the market.

The CfIT is the body which advises the government on transport.

BBC transport correspondent Tom Symonds said cars and lorries are the biggest source of carbon emissions in the UK.

The CfIT believes that motorists can be taught to drive more cleanly, saying that keeping to 70mph rather than 80mph on the motorway will cut emissions by almost a third.

The report also says speed limits should be more rigorously enforced*, and other advice includes turning off air conditioning, driving without a roof rack and generally driving with a "lighter touch".

*Minimum speeds on motorways presumably?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 09:27 
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I think the conclusions of the article are technically correct, but the BBC's headline is a gross distortion of the actual findings.

Does the planet need saving, even given that climate change is real? No. Is the speed limit the most significant part of this report? No.

I would expect that stopping andstarting all the time due to humps/lights/chicanes, and driving round looking for an artificially restricted parking space, must totally dominate these smaller effects. Also their point on air conditioning isn't very helpful given that they admit opening the window is just as bad.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:08 
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Driving smoothly does make a huge difference to the fuel economy, but rigidly enforcing speed limits will not help this. On my 36 mile journey to work I sometimes have a completey clear run and according to the trip computer average around 43mph and 47mpg. On other days I get held up all over the place and average 35mpg but only 43mpg. Keeping a smooth steady progress if far more inportant than maximum speeds. Acceleration and (especially) braking ruin economy.

My experiments suggest that air conditioning makes very little difference to the economy. Any changes are totally swamped by the the driving style and road conditions. On a straight level road with the cruise control on I watched the instantaneous fuel consumption as I turned the A/C on and off. The difference is barely noticable, so I don't know where they get 10% from.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:47 
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CFIT: http://www.cfit.gov.uk/about/index.htm

Take a look at the members and tell me which ones represent motorists.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:34 
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So, don't get a roof rack and don't use your air-con and this will save the planet? I despair of these idiots.
How many coal fired power stations being built in China? - Lots.
The phrase "pissing in the ocean" comes to mind.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:42 
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malcolmw wrote:


CFIT wrote:
Providing policy advice via evidence based reports on:

Obviously another quango where the conclusions preceed the 'evidence' to be collected from carefully selected PC reports or surveys replete with leading questions.

CFIT wrote:
Refreshing the transport debate...

Anyone know where this debate is being held?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 17:56 
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On a long journey (mostly motorways) my 1.9tdi Galaxy automatic will report an average of 46mpg or so. On the school run it struggles to get 30mpg average.

All that seems to matter to the powers that be is to reduce speeds, surley spending money to make the roads better and faster would give better environmental results. But if we were to get better fuel economy then we would be paying less tax.

Its a win win situation for the government, they wont spend (our) money on roads to reduce congestion and therefore we have to pay more tax on the additional fuel we use whilst at the same time they keep adding more taxes in the name of global warming.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 19:06 
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I can only presume that you do the school run with the windows down and the roofrack on! :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 19:28 
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No, I let the wife do the school run :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 19:53 
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BBC wrote:

With a technician plugged into the car's engine via a laptop, I drove a series of laps, maintaining 70 and then 80 on the two straightest sections.

The result? The car produced a third more CO2 getting from one end of the track to the other at 80 than it did at 70.


I would be quite interested on what they used to get this percentage.

Amount of CO2 for the distance travelled?
Amount of CO2 for the time travelled?
Or just the amount of CO2 at 70 mph. or 80 mph?
How long was the car cursing at the speed to get this result?
Did they use cruise control at cruising speed?
I

Why on a track, it is not much like real life?

Where would one get this information?

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Last edited by ree.t on Wed Sep 12, 2007 20:10, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 20:04 
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Cruising at 80 does not produce 30% more CO2 than cruising at 70. The difference they describe is more likely to be due to the rate of acceleration on different laps. I reckon they could easily get the car to produce more CO2 with a lower maximum speed just by driving harshly.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 20:16 
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semitone wrote:
Cruising at 80 does not produce 30% more CO2 than cruising at 70. The difference they describe is more likely to be due to the rate of acceleration on different laps. I reckon they could easily get the car to produce more CO2 with a lower maximum speed just by driving harshly.

Slightly repeating myself from another thread:

The drag (additional energy expended) is approximately proportional to the square of the (air) speed; this could be where the 30% figure came from [((8/7)(8/7)) = 1.306]. However, I doubt it is as much as that because cars are being increasingly refined such that the drag isn't so significant compared to the other (more linear/constant) losses.

I wonderd if the testers factored in the wind? The pull from other vehicles will exaggerate the resultant figure; afterall, the tests were done on a motorway where one can expect a level of slipstreaming.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 20:24 
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I love way % are thrown about, with no reference to any numbers.
Quote:
Research suggests turning on the air conditioning uses 10% more fuel, therefore producing CO2.


Our own analysis indicates that a driver can save around 25% of fuel consumption in a year

It has predicted the measures would increase by 70% the CO2 savings proposed by the government's climate change programme.

current plan to stabilise carbon emissions by 2020 would become one to reduce emissions by around 14%.




It sound like something from 1984.

Also
Quote:
CFIT quotes a new Mori poll which suggests a growing number of air travellers accept the idea of higher taxes


Who do they find the people for these polls? they never ask me.

I don't accept the idea of higher taxes.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 21:30 
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semitone wrote:
On a straight level road with the cruise control on I watched the instantaneous fuel consumption as I turned the A/C on and off. The difference is barely noticable, so I don't know where they get 10% from.


I'm guessing from the same place they keep pulling similarly dubious figures (e.g. amount of leccy used by the average TV left on standby). Either that, or someone is taking Mythbusters a bit too seriously...


...or alternatively, they've cherry-picked their figures to suit their agenda - what good would it do for their ecomentalist argument if they were to admit that, well, actually, there are quite a few cars out there which can run with A/C turned on without it having any noticeable effect on fuel consumption?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 23:03 
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Quote:
CFIT quotes a new Mori poll which suggests a growing number of air travellers accept the idea of higher taxes


It's weasel words; it implies a majority but "a growing number" could mean 3% for all we know.

Also, if people accept the taxes, then they can't have a useful effect. To reduce actual flights the taxes would have to not be acceptable to people so as to force them not to fly.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 03:27 
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they also don't point out which car is being used. I'd be inclined to think that bigger more powerful cars are more efficient at 80 than 70 as it'd be their optimal gear 6 / 7 speed.

If they did this in a Ford Fiesta, or a Ford Ka, then it's no wonder they got the results they did as those two would be wheezing and panting and revving past 5000rpm to do 80mph


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 09:58 
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my bike does 50 mpg if I cane it and 55 mpg if I ride like an old woman. I suggest different cars will behave differently also.

It would be interesting to know if the track was an oval or drag strip. The latter would make a huge difference, as we'd need to use approx. 20-40% more power getting to 80 over 70. whereas sustaining 80 is a different story

I wonder what CO2 could be removed by replacing unnecessary traffic lights with roundabouts and adopting a go with caution on flashing amber in off-peak times.

I spend half my time waiting at red lights for non-existent cyclists and pedestrians to cross the road at 6AM. I would estimate a saving of 15% time just by switching to the flashing amber rule. I suspect this would make a massive difference to pollution too.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 13:06 
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It doesnt matter how economical your car is, a 4X4 doing 90 down the motorway is far more efficient than a frugal fuel sipper sitting stationary in traffic.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 17:39 
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good point, doing 17mpg whilst doing 90mph, is always going to trump 0mpg whilst doing 0mph in traffic. The problem is the Hybrib cars have been markted as the solution to climate change, so people think just by sitting in them they are doing good


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