Safe Speed Forums

At motorway speeds, a "mere" 10 mph increase in speed requires an increase in your "certainty distance" of over 80 feet, to account for the extra stopping distance required.

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I stole this .sig

No they won't, no more than they would if speed cameras were suddenly switched off tomorrow. Making highly charged, attention grabbing statements such as this doesn't actually make it true.

I'm not sure if Paul meant "enforce the 70 mph limit" (I think that's being anforced already, albeit with some margin in the case of cameras and possibly by a bit more margin in the case of trafpol) or "effect adherence to the 70mph limit" (which I suppose could be achieved by rigid and very widespread enforcement).

Assuming the latter, I suppose the fact is we can't be sure what would happen but I do think it would substantially increase the accident rate on motorways. I would suggest there would be massive bunching of traffic and tailgating would be far more widespread than it is already; road rage incidents would increase; congestion would be more severe. All round, it would be a very bad thing.

It would also lead to substantial diversion on to other, probably less safe, roads.

And a lot more drivers just sticking the cruise at their interpretation of 70, leading to cars doing two-mile overtakes just the same as trucks.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Serge - been driving a long time now - almost 29 years! When I first passed my test - policemen used to lurk in side streets, and being a young lad in my Dad's flash car - they would follow me!

You used to drive around aware that the police were out and about. Just knowing this was enough to keep me in check.

As time has gone on and more drivers are on the road - the sheer volume has created further hazards. We have a broader range of driver abilities as more can afford to drive these days. Hence - we have more people to create danger.

In the meantime - we have seen the introduction of speed cameras - as the authorities decided that only one type of driver activity killed people - speed. This, led to a reduction of traffic police, increased speeding in areas not controlled by scamera, more illegal untaxed, unisnured and highly dangerous driver standards - which has made the roads far more dangerous than they were prior to the days of police enforcement of the rules.

We also have an idea the "I am safe so long as I drive at the speed limit" idea in some of our drivers. It does not cross their minds that the limit ia a limit and not a target speed.

sometimes the safest speed is way below the speed limit - like in bad weather conditions or overtaking parked cars, vulnerable users and so on!


Hence - we have a more serious problem to put right as a result of the darned devices. Like getting trafiic police back to trained numbers and teaching people how to drive again!




Not what we are saying at all. Safe speed means the safest speed for the conditions - which can be below a speed limit. I do not always drive at 30 mph in a 30 mph zone. Sometimes I drive at 10-15 mph if circumstances so dictate - like if behind a milk float, tractor, errrrr cyclist, motorised wheelchair thingy, ....and so one. I do not always drive at 70 mph either! OK - so I usually drive a bit faster than that But sometimes I tootle along at a nice sedate 60 mph as well.

Most - would choose to drive at the safest speed by instinct. As all on here know - drive fairly frequently in Germany. Some lovely deristricted there. Lot of people come on these sites and post that they drive at 140 mph and so on on these roads.

Well - yes you can. But those who do and have accident above 81.25mph may find they are not insured. You pay extra on premiums in Germany for this perk or increased risk to your health! They also train their drivers to drive on these roads as well - and they do prosecute if they judge you abused the perk as well - as you are not supposed to harass another road user. In fact - bit of a myth that your averaged Kraut hoons it around there - most settles at 95 mph -ish, with the occasion balt up to 110/120 mph. Few do a "Turbo Rolf" of a 140 mph cruise for miles and miles. Bit of a Brothers Grimm!

So Serge - think you may find most will still drive at a speed they feel able to cope with - and IG, Ian et all will still be mopping up after the numpty brigade just the same - unless we do something to improve training.

IG's Hendon series stress driver attitude and observation needs - that's not changed - but the message of good practice is getting lost in the "speed kills" mantra.




Hazard awares comes with experience. This is formally tested via DVD and has its place. However, this really tests how skilled you are at using a computer and clicking a mouse. Being in front of a screen is not substitute for being behind the wheel of a car, reacting, selecting gear and ensuring you reacted safely and appropriately. The new drivers may not necessarily know how to react properly and you see this when they respond to an emergency vehicle and even my colleagues operating a green light.

This kind of test has its place - but I do worry that it gives a false confidence to some of our new drivers who think they have enough knowledge to recognise and react to hazards based on this test. All hazards are unique in any case - the video clips on the test are contrived to high degree as well.

Driving schools should really be teaching and emphasising CAOST/OAP and so on per RoadCraft - and teaching people how to evaluate a drive. Speak from experience: my son is a new driver. paid RAC to formally teach him - but all the evaluation skills and extra COAST stuff - he picked up from his parents and a number of his aunties and uncles.

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Tiredness at the wheel!

It's an emotive subject.

Sorry for the tangential zoom off topic again.

From my experience, people fall asleep anywhere. It seems to have little to do with speed, road type etc.

The biggest offending group are wagon drivers. Certainly they drive more slowly than car drivers, but can we say this is the cause of their tiredness? They could be moonlighting, they could be over their hours. But they fall asleep anywhere, on winding A roads, duals and motorway.
Surely concentration should be higher through a sequence of bends than on the motorway at whatever speed, but inevitably that is where the accidents happen. (Of course that's where they will come off.....on a bend, stoopid! ), but I've dealt with and been aware of fatigue collisions on A66, A590 and A65 where the wagon driver has simply fallen off the straight road not long after bends which require a modicum of concentration.

This chap.....

fell asleep on A591 between Windermere and Kendal, about 6 miles after setting off from Windermere on a trip to York! It's not exactly a straight road nor had he time to settle into his drive.

I think that the cause of driver fatigue has much more to do with driving when you know you shouldn't be, rather than trying to adjust your driving to stay awake.

I have a feeling that the amount of concentration required to drive more quickly may infact induce tiredness. I'm happy to assess any counter argument however, and I think I can feel a 'piffle' coming on Paul.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Well I suppose the obvious counter-argument is that any increased fatigue caused by driving faster will be balanced by an earlier arrival at the destination.

I'd agree that 'performance driving' is more tiring than 'normal' driving but not sure if just driving 10-20mph faster would make any discernible difference. Doesn't the answer lie in mental stimulation?

On a busy road or motorway, a driver who, by reason of travelling a bit faster, is constantly changing lanes, assessing closing distances etc. will remain stimulated so less likely to succumb to drowsiness than one who cruises at 'regulation' speed and is not required to do anything other than hold the steering wheel.

But, if there is no or little traffic, I can't see that driving at (say) 80mph will be any different to driving at 60mph. Perhaps driving at 120mph would make a difference?

Often wondered if it is the drone of the engine. My kids - especially th youngest - will fall asleep fairly quickly in the car- and I wonder if the steady hum of the engine (and my smooth driving of course) cause this.

But then - where I said that Red Bull and coffee can pep you up in one thread - you have to bear in mind that an overdose of caffeine can actually cause fatigue - and the case of a trucky, this could be a result of overwork as you say Ian, but it could also be result of shift hours and the body clock, diet in a greasy spoon cafe, and more caffeine than the body can cope with. Also lot of these truckies (generalising) tend to be heavy smokers which exacerbates the problem.



Thought I read this this pillock went potholing and set off without any real sleep.



I only wish people would be better managers and just recognise when they are not up to the job. I do speak from being on the recieiving end - as you all know what happened to my wife.

Would love to see them locked up for long periods - but recognising when you are tired is a subjective and personal thing - and some people just appear to think that acknowledging they are tired is a "weakness" and of course employers are most unsympathetic to this as an excuse for a "sickie"

Perhaps we ought to introduce the USA idea of a "Duvet Day!"



I don't know - I now I feel more alert when driving fast in Germany and on track. Perhaps it is the change of scene...and for some people of course - they get an extra adrenalin charge. Everyone is different.

However.....

Fatigue can be a state of mind - arises from a variety of circumstances - boredom, stress, anxiety, depression, illlness and certain medications.

You could even have something more serious like anaemia or cancer.

Lots of things can cause fatigue - insomnia, flu, PMT, pregnancy (though this seemed to have the opposite with Wildy ), glandular fever, ME, hypothyroidisms, lung disorders, heart disorders, hepatitis. leukemia ...

Best to have a check up ....

How to combat fatigue?

exercise twice a week (anything gentle)
get a set sleep routin
do not drink to much alcohol or cofffee
try to give up smoking
take at least one day off a week
do not work too late at night
find a new hobby

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Thank you.

I dunno about that, even in the absence of traffic there's still enough difference in sensory stimulation (speed at which roadside furniture passes through your field of view, tone and volume of the engine, road and wind noise etc.) to make up for the lack of interaction with other road users.

So when I can see clearly that there is no hazard for half a mile or so driving at 80mph in a 70mph zone would not be a problem would it?

I try not to ever exceed a speed which is greater than the available stopping distance.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

If you read my post properly you would see that in my case the reason for being drowsy is boredom. I was NOT tired, stopping for a rest would have NO effect because soon after starting off again I would become bored and the drowsiness would start again.

By driving in my comfort zone I am alert and do NOT become drowsy.

Same road, same fitness level, same level of tiredness, same level of health, same level, or lack, of stimulants in the body - the only thing different was the 10mph and driving at a "natural" pace for me.

Surely this means I am safer at my "natural" pace than I am at a pace dictated by a number in a circle and enforced by scameras, remembering that my "natural" pace may be LOWER than the number in some cases!

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

Wasn't there a big jump in waggon driver deaths when they introduced speed limiters?

Perhaps they just fell asleep because they were getting home so much later?

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http://www.itsyourduty.org.uk

I did read your post quite clearly Ross, and you'll see I apologised for taking the thread off topic. I quoted your post as it contained a precis of the argument by three individual posters.

My use of 'you' was not referring to you in particular. Perhaps I should have been more grammatically correct and said 'one'. Apologies for any confusion.

I work shifts, round the clock, and something which never fails to surprise me is the speed that drivers travel at night time. It is significantly slower than day time. I don't think there's any added consideration for speed cameras, as this has not changed in my 9 years on traffic. If tiredness/ boredom was connected to slower speed, Im sure that people would drive more quickly at night time.

But as I've said, I'm interested in finding out more, and assessing the arguments and facts on the subject.

I'm interested in your assessment of 'comfort zone' as being the zone which you retain heightened alertness.

My own personal experience from last night (yawwwnnnn........), is that if I have a comfort zone ie my recognised piece of bed to sleep in, my slumber is deep and refreshing. Last night however a two year old had a bad nose bleed and my wife wouldn't let her sleep in her own bed. My 4 year old has a cough like a 40 a day smoker, so she had to be comforted in the same way. I was demoted to an uncomfortable corner of the bed, and I did not sleep well at all. I was therefore more 'alert' through being uncomfortable.

I agree that it's a crap analogy, but I don't know if 'comfort zone' will keep you awake. Maybe it's a personal thing. I know if I have to do a response run at 4 in the morning, when you are normally at a low ebb, any tiredness seems to disappear until the job's over. I've become more alert, certainly, but I'd like to think that my response driving was outside what you would define as your (road going) comfort zone.

My own experience would suggest that, yes we do have fatigue collisions on the motorway, but I don't think that we have any more per km or per vehicle minute than on A roads. Perhaps this is because of bends on A roads rather than despite them, perhaps drivers are woken by rumble strips on motorways which reduces the collision frequency. I'd like to know more.

Perhaps though, people are just driving when they shouldn't be.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

I'd like to see the figures if you have them Bogush....Paul?

It could be as you say that they are taking longer to cover the trip, although driver hours regs are designed to cover that.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

This is my post from the cruise control thread:

As for switching off; many years ago, (1983 ish) I was driving through the night, on cruise control. When I awoke, the protruding wheel nuts on a truck were eating my front wing! What you will find more remarkable is that it was the second time that trip that I had hit something through falling asleep. The first occasion was a contra flow system, which had diverted the traffic on my carriageway over to the other side. I was fast asleep by then and ploughed through hundreds of cones. When you see what happened at Selby that could so easily have been me. However the cruise control was just one contributing factor. The others were: a 14-hour journey, a comfy car, lack of visual stimulation, and severe lack of sleep. But you'll be pleased to know I wasn't exceeding the posted speed limit, so at least it was safe

In addition, when driving through the night and the motorway was empty (they were then!) I used to drive in the middle lane in case I fell asleep, so using the rumble strips as an alarm clock

For what it's worth I only ever felt sleepy once on a winding A road. The two accidents weren't the end of it, there was one more: Fell asleep, on motorway on gentle left hand bend. Armco put two lovely grooves down the side of the car.

Whilst there is more awareness of the dangers of driving whilst tired, I am fairly sure there will still be people driving now, acting as irresponsibly as I was then.

Max

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Tailgaters - Please Pass
You have an Accident to go to!

Yep, he had been potholing or caving all week, and had been partying on the Friday and Saturday night - RTC happened 3pm on Sunday afternoon - no alcohol involved.

Note the grass flattened this side of the car. This car came to rest on the other side of the road, fortunately missing any opposing traffic on it's way across.


Excellent info and advice.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

You are right Max, unfortunately some are not driving now. Was involved with one on the motorway last year. The driver fell asleep and killed the front and rear seat passenger. At the scene the driver admitted falling asleep, although he denied it later in interview saying his now dead passenger had for some unexplained reason grabbed the steering wheel from the driver causing the collision.
He eventually tried that line in court but he was not believed and got an absolute slating from the Judge for trying such an obscene defence.
Was very lucky only to be convicted for careless.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

There but for the grace......

I have for a long time, obviously been more aware of the dangers and frequently notice either roadside furniture or parked cars on hard shoulders that would if you hit them, have catastrophic consequences. As for the driver, changing his story, it will haunt him forever. But how much blame do you attach to a driver who fell asleep?

Max

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Tailgaters - Please Pass
You have an Accident to go to!

By "wagon", I take it that you mean speed limited HGVs?

I expect speed limiters to promote fell-asleep crashes.

I don't suppose there's any way of looking at your force's records to count up HGV fell asleep crashes before and after the introduction of speed limiters is there?



You'll get no "piffle" from me on this one.

I agree if we driver faster than our personal comfort zone then we'll experiecne stress and become tired. Equally if we drive slower then we should expect to become more relaxed and less attentive.

We see press reports suggesting that something like 30% of drivers admit to falling asleep at the wheel. It's a big problem.

Suppose the 1/3rd estimate is correct, and my suggestion that "slower than optimal" promotes sleepiness is correct. That's one hell of a tiger waiting to bite. It's not something that I'd risk provoking without damn good evidence.

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Paul Smith
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The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety