Safe Speed Forums

I got curious after reading Lancashire Lucy's thread about getting zapped at 34 mph and being offered a course. The same thing happened to someone else I know, and they said they were doing about 34 mph as well. There was some discussion about whther anyone had the NIPs as the camera partnerships have said that this doesn't happen. Out of curiosity I emailed Thames Valley Police and asked them for details about their Speed Awareness Scheme. My questions are in bold, but I've summarised the replies to keep things short.

As I understand it the course is offered to speeding drivers who have exceeded the limit by a small amount in lieu of a fine and/or an endorsement. Is this correct?
There are actually two courses, both run by Drivetech. Which you get sent on, if any, depends on the severity of the offence. The first is only for speeding marginally over a 30 mph limit, and is in lieu of 3 points and £60 fine. The second is only for excessive speeding where the driver would be outside the FPN bracket and would receive a summons (max fine £1000, up to 6 points, possible ban).
What is the maximum speed above the legal limit considered suitable for an offer of driver training?
In a 30 mph zone this is 36 mph.
If the invitation to a course is discretionary, what guidelines exist to determine that the drivers selected are those who would benefit most from such a course?
All speeding drivers caught at 36 mph are currently offered the course. Depending on demand etc. the scheme may be withdrawn or extended to cover other limits.
Are any other factors considered when an invitation to attend a course is made (e.g., hazard density at location of offence, weather conditions, driver behaviour, etc.)?
As far as cameras etc are concerned, no because they can only detect speed.
Is the offer of attending a course made automatically in all cases where a driver is only marginally over the speed limit? If not, under what circumstances would an invitation to a course not be made?
I was referred to the first three answers, which I take to mean that all drivers speeding in 30 mph zones by up to 6 mph who would normally get an FPN are offered a course, plus those who would normally get a summons for really excessive speed.
What are the cost, duration and content of the course?
£65 and about 3 hours. The course is designed to improve driver skills, attitude and behaviour. The course for excessive speed is a four hour interactive course and costs £85.
Is the course available to all drivers, or only drivers that have been caught speeding?
It's tailored to deal with speeding offences so is only available to drivers caught speeding.

I then mailed back to get clarification on a couple of points.

Are all drivers recorded at speeds between 30 and 36 mph offered the option of the course?
Basically yes. (I think it's safe to say that if they check with DVLA and find you were banned last week they might behave a bit differently )
You mention that the first course is only for drivers slightly exceeding a 30 mph limit and that this may be extended to other speed limits. Does this means that only motorists caught speeding in residential areas are being targeted at the moment?
No, there's over 300 camera sites in the TVP area sited within DFT guidelines, and officers can of course stop any driver for speeding regardless. (I'll be asking for further clarification of this answer as well, since what I was driving at was whether only speeders in residential areas are being sent on courses.)
When I asked if factors other than speed are considered when an offer of a course is made I should have been more specific...I was thinking about drivers stopped by a police officer. [E.g.] a police officer might stop someone for driving at 29 mph in a residential area if s/he considered that the road was too slippery...or someone driving too close to the car in front... In both situations the motorist would have neglected their stopping distance... Are such drivers are ever offered a choice of a fine or a course that would improve their driving standard, just as marginal speeders are?
When someone is stopped for a driving offence it's all down to the officer's judgement. Occasionally drivers are offered improvement courses to deal with non-speed related bad driving on recommendation of police officers.

I've got to say that Thames Valley Police have been pretty helpful, so it'd be interesting to put the same questions to other forces/partnerships who offer training in lieu of FPNs. I might send do the other local forces next week. I've also heard second hand that the course is actually pretty useful, and after all it's only a fiver more than the fine - that's a no brainer IMO. It's also good to know that people driving really fast, and I think they were talking about 30 mph or more over the limit, are sent on a training course too. Let's be honest, the ones doing 60 mph through local high streets are probably the ones who need training most of all, and it's good to know at least one force recognises this.
On the other hand, what these answers do show is that at least as far as TVP are concerened the old 3mph+10% margin is history as far as residential areas are concerned. They were pretty clear that in a 30 mph zone all drivers caught between 30 and 36 mph will be sent on a course. Effectively it's zero tolerance in TVP residential areas, balanced by the use of courses. It also seems a little odd that from 31 to 36mph, and over 60mph in a residential area is dealt with by training, but 37 to 59 mph is not. Presumably it's FPNs still. So far it seems that breaking 40, 50, 60 and NSL limits by a small amount will not get you the offer of a course, as all such speeding is still dealt with as before. But it's not clear if a 10%+3 margin is still allowed for these higher limits.

Live in Cumbria - as you know next door to LanCASH£re!

Have relatives who live in Lancashire Hill Country, and of course my work does take me to hospitals in Lancs. Know of lots of people in Lancs. who have been on this course at some stage over past 12 months.

Wildy's cousin (who lives up near Pendle Hill) has been needling the Chief CON on regular basis over the draconian enforcement which is not saving any more lives , and they really do prosecute you for 31-35mph there. Know several who have received these NIPs and been sent on the course, and the cousin who is really starting to rev up his rants now has photocopies which show these people really have been "done" at daft speeds which are against guidelines. It does really turn a good initiative into a money-grabbing farce, and shows that this whole speed/scamera issue is the shallow money-making sham that our Paul (and others - ABD etc) have exposed it to be!

We are very careful when we drive through as it is worse than Wales.

We have also looked at the Lancs web site - especially regarding their talivan activities! And we have done similar thing to you about getting more details about these courses.

The course costs £85-£95 (as they give you an alternative venue - Staffs), and they make surcharge if you cannot go on date they stipulate - and this has happened to hospital staff who have been pinged there - absent medical staff means postponed operation for someone ) They do cut off at 35mph, and as far as I am aware, it is not offered for excessive speeding or at any other speed limits, marginal or other. As far as we can gather from other people who have attended this (and pepipoo and Pistonheads sites have threads on it) it is a 5-6 hour course. Theory in the morning and a drive in the afternoon. Your post confirms that these scammers offering the courses are prosecuting as Lucy and others in Lancs complain - namely 31-35mph. Your name is entered on a data base, as we understand, and if you are copped a second time within the three years - even at 31mph - you get the FNP@ 3 points. You cannot attend any second speed awareness course either according to the blurb we have read. Presumably, they check their data base when they nick you again!

We also see discrepancies: we read that Kenneth Branagh had attended the £65 course (the hazard theory test DVD according to the "Mail" that day) for a 35mph "crime", Lancs offers course at £85-£105 depending on your circumstances for that day, and Dick Ed in Brunstromia is planning to charge a whopping £200 for his course - again cutting off at 35mph.

Now, not against driver training at all - but perceive this kind of practice as yet another money-making farce which does little to resolve the problem of those who do speed dangerously, excessively and persistently.

They would be better served offering these courses to all first offenders regardless of speed recorded, and offering the course and the punishment to those OTT offenders!

But then - what else can you expect from these braindeads planks?

I got another e-mail today with some more clarification. It seems that in Thames Valley speeding when the limit is 40 mph or more is still dealt with as normal, i.e. mostly FPNs. They say that no training is offered in these cases only because the scheme is still fairly new. They admit that courses aren't offered to drivers doing over 36 mph, but say that this is because they're still assessing demand, not because they don't feel it's worthwhile. They also say they're still working towards the ACPO guideline of 10% + 2 mph as the minimum for enforcement. I assume from the earlier answers that this is only on 40 mph roads and up, as they've already admitted that they ping everyone in 30 zones between 31 and 36 to go on courses. I'm not sure how they reconcile saying that 10% + 2 is the minimum level for enforcement with pinging someone doing 31 mph and forcing them to go on the course under threat of penalty points and a fine. However, at least I now know the score round here. Keep your nose very clean in urban areas, but expect a little latitude elsewhere.

I've still yet to see a 34mph NIP and I won't believe they're issued until I do.

Reading TV's first response above, they seem to indicate that exactly 36mph is the only speed they offer the course at. They later change their mind, but qualify the answer with the word "basically" which means 'not exactly, but you have the jist'.

I'm still not convinced these <35mph NIPs exist.

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Carl Prescott

"Basically" was my wording, not theirs, since I was summarising the responses I'd received for all questions. Initially I asked what the maximum speed was at which someone would be offered the option of a course. The reply was 36 mph. Of course, I should have asked what the range of speeds was, not the maximum. In fairness I think their apparent change of mind is actually a result of me asking the wrong question in the first place. If you're interested the actual reply to "Are all drivers recorded at speeds between 30 and 36 mph offered the option of the course?" was I condensed that down to two words and put in my assumptions regarding existing bans etc. Since they say that at 31-36 mph you get offered a course I think it's safe to say that you would indeed get a fine and points if you turn down the offer. From what I was told by someone who had been on one and claims he was doing 34 (and is checking to see if he kept a copy of the NIP, but I'm not hopeful) you have a certain period of time to book your course, and if you don't turn up you get the fine and points instead. However, that is anecdotal.

Ah, fair enough, thanks for the clarification.

However, my point stands - people often bleat on about 34mph NIPs, but no-one can ever seem to produce one and until I see one, I'll remain skeptical.

Having said that, I understand Mad Moggie is chasing someone who has one of these mythical items, so the wait may sson be up.

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Carl Prescott

I don't disagree that people should never be prosecuted for driving a few miles an hour over the limit, but that would be when road conditions were such that the speed is clearly inappropriate, and that even 30mph would probably be too fast (for the conditions).

However this should be enforced by police (with video evidence) at discrimination, and should possibly be construed as "careless driving".

GATSOs are not rational like this, and the danger is clear - you don't know when you are a couple of miles per hour over the limit unless you keep checking your speedometer, in which case you can't concentrate on the road.

And since Earl Purple mentioned Gatso limitations, I saw an dangerous driver go through a Gatso site on the A30 today without setting it off because he wasn't speeding. He wasn't speeding because he was busy reading the small print on my rear number plate at the time, and I was just on the limit. He was driving dangerously because he was reading... oh you get the picture. Looking in the mirror I'd have been forgiven for thinking he was on a tow rope. Later on the A4 I saw a Land Rover tailgating a Beemer. Seems to me that among the dumbest things to do on the road is tailgating, especially when you do it to a car that's faster than yours because it's likely to have better brakes. Idiots like this are fireproof as far as cameras are concerened, so there's little chance of them being sent for training even though they need it far more than someone who's gone slightly over 30 on a clear road.