Safe Speed Forums

Interesting PR from MART.



Manchester Against Road Tolls

How to reduce your carbon Footprint:
Ditch the Bus, Take the Ferrari

Manchester Council has recently announced its inclusion in the Low Carbon Cities Programme. (1) Using data obtained from Stagecoach, the average carbon footprint of bus passengers in Greater Manchester was 500g/km per passenger (2) - Significantly higher then than any 4x4 or sports car on the market today.

Manchester Against Road Tolls (M.A.R.T) are accusing Manchester Council of misleading the public and breaking one of its own congestion charge Smart Charging ‘golden rules’ (3)

Average car occupancy 1.3 (4)
Co2 per passenger 98g/km

Stagecoach bus average occupancy per km 2.43
Co2 per passenger 499.4g/km

Taxing motorists onto Greater Manchester buses will lead to an increase in carbon emissions and other pollutants. The type of blanket bus service envisaged as part of the congestion charge bid will inevitably mean low occupancy rates outside peak times and therefore a higher carbon footprint per passenger then using the car. The problem will be compounded during peak periods by the Councils congestion causing policy of installing bus lanes on Manchester's main commuter routes thus stealing road space from business users and commuters.

Author of the 1.8 million road pricing petition and parliamentary candidate for UKIP Peter Roberts said
A comprehensive nationally run bus service is a desirable objective in itself, but to claim that it also the most environmentally friendly way to travel is dishonest. To then tax cars with a lower average carbon footprint on the basis of C02 output is hypocritical and politically motivated.'


MART coordinator Sean Corker says;
'GMPTE Chairman Roger Jones’ rather simplistic argument of bus good - car bad is a cynical exploitation of a widely held misconception. A vehicle weighing over 10 tonnes that records approx 6 mpg yet carries an average of 2.43 passengers per km can never be considered ‘green’. Even a fully laden bus emits roughly the same amount of Co2 per passenger as a modern diesel car carrying four people.(5). The GMPTE must decide whether they want a ‘Green’ bus service or a comprehensive bus service’. Manchester also has a serious particulate (Pm10) problem centred around Piccadilly bus station (6)’


Mart has always campaigned for a world class transport system in Manchester funded from the £60 billion a year motoring taxes we already pay nationally. Extra local congestion taxes would mean that the driver pays twice for the same transport spending.


Notes For Editors

(1) http://www.manchester.gov.uk/ site/scripts/ news_article. php?newsID= 3163

(2) Figures obtained from Stagecoach for April 2006 – March 2007

86 million passenger journeys

22 million miles travelled

672 buses in the fleet.

1 litre of Diesel emits 2.63kg Co2 http://archive.greenpeace.org/climate/smile/faq/ faq2.html

A modern bus averages approx 6mpg

Each bus travels an average of 52686km – uses 24312 litres fuel – emits 63.9 tonnes Co2 per year

1213g/km Co2

Average passengers per Km 2.43

Carbon footprint per passenger 499.4g/km


(3) Smart charging Principles - 'Smart Charging must benefit the Environment'

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/downloads/ TIF_report. pdf


(4) Greater Manchester Traffic Unit report 1289 – table 4.1 average car occupancy 1.3

(5) Auto Express - Four people commuting in a Ford Focus would each have a carbon footprint of 34.5g/km, One fully laden bus in a bus lane takes up more road space then the 12 cars needed to replace it and has a comparable per passenger Co2 figure.

(6) http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/ s/1010/1010667_citys_asthma_ alert_.html

Contact
Sean Corker
07736836163
Sean.corker@ manchestertollta x.com

_________________
Wake me up when the revolution starts
STOP the Toll Tax http://www.traveltax.org.uk

Spot on, my friend. But I think it's what's inside that counts. I'm off work on the sick after going down with an illness that I could only have caught on a packed bus. I dislike the way everyone is crammed in like sardines. I never get a seat and when I do the driver tells me to get up and let the teenage chav mums and their pushchairs have a bit of room.

That's it! I AM FINISHED WITH PUBLIC TRANSPORT. The environmentalists can go and raffle themselves with their talk of Global Warming, carbon footprints, bus lanes, cycle lanes, road congestion, traffic calming, walk or cycle to work, public transport is just sooooo wonderful that we must have more of it.

What a pack of crap! From now on I'm taking my car to work and the lentil munchers can off and die somewhere stinkin'

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Anyone who tells you that nothing is impossible has never bathed in a saucer of water.

Hmm... One of the largest buses on UK roads is the Citaro G (aka bendy-bus), which eats 46 sq.m of roadspace. A Focus hatchback eats 8 sq.m. Even driving along bumper to bumper and door panel to door panel, you won't get 12 Focuses (Focii?) into the same roadspace as a single Citaro G...


...and a G is capable of shifting 24 Focus-loads of passengers if required. Using the roadspace required for a double-decker, which would still cope with 12 carloads of passengers, you end up with the bus requiring roughly 36 sq.m. How many 5-seater cars take up just 3 sq.m of roadspace?

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Chris

haha that doesn't add up at all. Maybe they are referring to the fact it is constantly stopping/starting, pulling out of bus stops, bus lanes and driving so eractically at times it is using 2 lanes of traffic, sometimes blocking entire junctions etc etc

It's not just the CO2 either: buses are generally old and emit a particularly foul exhaust smoke, whereas cars are much more stringently controlled on what they can emit.

Looks interesting, do you have a link to that PR by any chance please?

So what we need are better roads for all vehicles and better, cleaner, more modern buses.

And the only disease known to be found only on buses is bus driver's bottom, but I doubt if that's what you caught!

What was it that laid you low?

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www.thatsnews.org.uk / www.thatsnews.blogspot.com / http://thatsmotoring.blogspot.com/

Fraid not, Peter Roberts sent me it directly, but I'll ask him where it's published.

_________________
Wake me up when the revolution starts
STOP the Toll Tax http://www.traveltax.org.uk

Ta!

They are also including the space taken by the mainly empty bus lane. Factor that into your equation.

I would if it was a nice easy to nail down value... I'd then, in the interests of fairness and equality, also need to factor in the unused space in the lanes open to the cars. I might even want to consider the likelihood of finding a fully loaded bus versus the likelihood of finding 12 fully loaded cars.

Or I might simply consider the possibility that someone has cherry-picked a set of figures for one particular scenario which "proves" the point they want to make.

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Chris

What no-one has mentioned is the fact that the carbon footprint isn't just about the bus in this case but the effect on other traffic which in turn makes 'us' burn more fuel.

Where I live, in Birmingham, the roads have been deliberately made so as to bog traffic down at bus stops.

When a bus pulls over to collect passengers, nothing can overtake because they inconveniently plant a bollard on a small island at the rear of the bus in the centre of the road. You could go around the whole lot, illegally, but no-one does.

The result - a line of traffic frustrated at going nowhere burning fossil fuel all thanks to a bus stopping. No doubt it's done for H&S or traffic control.

My point therefore is the actual bus footprint is far worse than people claim IMO because of the knock-on effect.

Smug mode on...
I cycle to work and back every day, so no flies on me. Well, only if I don't have a wash
Smug mode off...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

My red... Tone, it's not done for either of those reasons. It's done to deliberately congest traffic flow to make people want to use public transport. But like mentioned earlier, I don't want to share public transport whilst it's full of smelly chavscum, eating their breakfasts stinking the place out, listening to their MP3 players at full volume etc...

edited to add: Or have to leave home an hour earlier...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

True, though these knock-on effects are often the artificially created result of anti-car meddling in the local transport planning departments, rather than an inherent and unavoidable consequence of having buses operating on those roads.

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Chris

Well, my friend calls them a peasant wagon and after my last few experiences I know why.

I last went on one with my girlfriend; filthy, dirty, smelly, covered in graffiti - but she's good with the kids

Seriously though, it was the most hideous experience of public transport in my entire life! The driver was smoking on a so-called none-smoking bus too, before I got on. Scum!!!

There was the sound of beer bottles rolling back and forth along the floor and the air filled with the annoying sound of mobile phones or Ipods screeching out crap into earphones. (like you said BB)

So I guess the only way they can get us to use public transport is by force.


So come to Birmigham for a good time folks and try out our public transport system.

Have a good day y'all...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Stagecoach -Tone ??

The one that looked back at the past , where the passengers got robbed by highwaymen, and decided to do away with the middle man

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

That's odd, I'm sure I've seen that happen before, somewhere.

I agree - plus public transport that is affordable, integrated and goes to places people want to go at times of day when that want to travel!

Being slightly critical, all the "full of poor/smelly/etc people comments" do us little credit - poor people still have to get around AND better off people DO need to use public transport sometimes you know. I went from Stafford to Durham and back by train yesterday and it WAS quicker than going by car, PLUS I got to do some (work) reading whilst travelling. I also use buses to go to and fro the pub several nights each week - I could hardly use my car for that!

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I won't slave for beggar's pay,
likewise gold and jewels,
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools

Please don't get me wrong Prof. I come from a very poor upbringing, , but I don't treat public transport like a skip or invade other peoples' space with music or bad language. Also, because I'm into health and fitness I don't feel the cold like others do and yet every bus I ever get on always has the windows shut. If you dare to open a window people look at you like you have two heads!

It's a breeding ground for germs and the lack of fresh air makes it damp and smelly inside. I'll bet if your home smelt and looked the same as the number 11 outer circle of Birmingham you'd have it disinfected. You'd think twice about sitting down on some of the seats too.

So I don't think I'm being unkind to anyone or any group - I'm just speaking as I find. I don't like it and I know it doesn't have to be that way because I've been to other European countries where it's a totally different experience; a pleasure to use in fact.

The last enjoyable experience I had on public transport in this country was on the Severn Valley Railway from Kidderminster to Bridgenorth, but that is the exception IMHO.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Has no one thought about building multi-storey car parks around the outskirts of (say) Manchester for instance and instead of "Trams" which can,t pass obstructions or divert round accidents etc. why not use trolley buses which could run from out of town car parks and have the flexibility of (to a point) modern buses as the majority of the "infrastructure" i.e. lamp posts etc. for cables is already in place and would cost a lot less than trams to install / operate.

The obvious thing would be that they would only operate at times such as from say 6am to 8pm then the roads would be less congested for all the delivery vehicles during the day which would speed up all the deliveries to companies in central M/cr. and have the added bonus of reducing the fumes stc. from diesel buses.

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"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut