Safe Speed Forums

A lot of the congestion isn’t necessary anyway. Full time traffic lights on roundabouts, nonsensical phasings at junctions, so-called ‘traffic calming’ to name a few. Look at what happened around London when the CC charge was coming into effect.


The situation would certainly get worse, but how much of that would be alleviated if the disused railways were converted to motorways and the stations as car parks?
Flip side: If we shut down all non-public motorised vehicular transport in the UK tomorrow and gave everybody the money to use bikes and PT what do you think would happen, both on the roads and in terms of government finances?


That may be, but the fact is that it (and various spin-offs) had quickly and significantly improved the quality of people’s lives.

I suspect if we withdrew all public transport subsidies the country would get along fine and scarcely bat an eyelid.

We would still have plenty of rail and bus services, but only the economically viable ones. Would the London commuter railways really shut down? Of course they wouldn't.

And maybe we should also liberalise public transport rules so that shared minibuses or "jitneys" could operate too.

FWIW I do actually support a limited amount of public transport subsidy to provide a basic service for those unable to use cars.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I don't support any public transport subsidy. They privatised the trains and buses to save the public purse from having to finance them. Now they cost far more than when they were state owned and the money ends-up paying shareholders. And they cost more to use. Work that out.

Sure, which is why I went to some modest lengths to explain how £70,000 has been arrived at as an average figure.

Are you going to make that 'good argument', or should we just take it on faith?

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Will the last person to leave please turn out the lights?

Nobody is saying that Copenhagen has it wrong, good on them I say, however you seem to be living with the ideology that what happens in Copenhagen will work in this country. It all looks very nice on film, try doing it in real life. It also may work in cities and local areas in the summer, try getting the same people to do it in the winter.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

That's not an ideology, sorry.
I've already linked to a YouTube clip claiming %70 of Copenhagen cyclists persevere when the weather gets nasty. Are you saying that because some cyclists abandon their bikes for cars or public transport in the winter there's no benefit in facilitating the use of bikes and sustainable alternatives to the car?
No. So what are you saying?
Copenhagen is at the same latitude as Edinburgh.

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Will the last person to leave please turn out the lights?

So is Moscow, Edmonton - Canada, Juneau - Alaska

Yes!!
So it's fantastic that cycling can be a viable urban transport mode at such latitudes, and gives the lie to the whinging nay-sayers who suggest that we're too climatically disadvantaged for cycling to be a viable personal transport option in this country.
Well spotted mpaton.

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Will the last person to leave please turn out the lights?

Yes, I am. I believe that those of us who have less patience or self-control can 'lose it' when faced with certain stressful circumstances.

Keep piling on these circumstances (crap driving, artificial congestion etc.) and one of them will be 'the straw that broke the camels back' and thus a driver may suffer from road-rage and explode and do things they wouldn't normally.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Wow, self exploding physcopathic motorist suicide bombers.

I wouldn't beleive it normally, but BottyBurp says its true.

Hmm, like Michael Douglas in 'Falling Down' you mean?

I'm not sure about this BB, there are lots of different things that piss different groups of people off. I mean, if Manchester United win at Anfield just one more then I'm going to kill some bugger I swear Or perhaps I just need to 'man up' a bit and learn to take lifes knocks on the chin.

Ooo, you're not perpetuating the hoary myth that the lights were rephased to increase congestion to justify the CC charge there are you?

Sure sounds like BottyBurp needs to chill right out there!

Hi Glaikie, 30 years is irrelevant to me, I only started driving in 2002. Please confirm to me that the REAL cost of motoring has been reduced since 2002 - when fuel was 74.9 p/l

But given that it's untrue that motorists are being picked on or have it harder than any other sector of journey makers, given that motorists enjoy subsidies that public transport users, cyclists and pedestrians can only dream of, you have to look elsewhere for the aetiology of the whinging motorist mind-set.
Sites like this don't help.

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Will the last person to leave please turn out the lights?

But how many people cycle in - Moscow, Edmonton - Canada, Juneau – Alaska, compared to Copenhagen. I’d suspect it’s on par with the UK. Yes it would be fantastic if we were all on Bicycles, unfortunately we're living in the real world.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Firstly - Weepej, I want to say I've agreed with a number of your points in the thread thus far, but on this I must ask

If the government would remove some of it's own ridiculous red tape for road works, then that figure would be massively reduced, and it would get a heck of a lot quicker



Similarly, following the recent revelation of artificial road works being put in place to monitor our behaviour. If the authorities removed ALL (and actually did it) unnecessary road blocks, road works, traffic 'calming' measures and hadn't reduced so many road capacities in town - we wouldn't have so much congestion today.

I agree - the country needs people to use PT as well as cars, it couldn't cope if everyone went to work by car - but it also couldn't cope if everyone went to work by PT

Not to justify it (that’s a bit of a strong claim), merely to make it seem more effective than it actually was. It wasn't a myth, even MPs were going on about it. Unfortunately the links to their comments no longer work (odd that) so I'm afraid I have no longer have concrete proof (just as naysayers have no proof to claim it was a myth).

That doesn't take away from the examples of engineered congestion I gave.

I've a better idea. Why don't you justify this collective wail for me by demonstrating that the cost of motoring has risen faster than the cost of public transport since 2002, or faster than the Retail Price Index?
The 'real' cost of motoring fell by 5.3% between 2002 and 2005. Were you on here posting in celebration of your windfall during that time? "Hey everybody, my motoring costs are falling! Result." No?
Bus fares rose by 10.5% during the same period. Train fares rose by 1.2% during the same period.
Pity the poor beleaguered motorist, right?

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Will the last person to leave please turn out the lights?

Haha, fantastic. No I wasn't on here championing it - but at the time I wasn't complaining about motoring costs either... odd that isn't it? You've avoided the 2002-2007 comparison though. You've also continued to ignore other members pointing out your choice of time-frame for the longer period.

Only complain when something is wrong... Get on with things and be content and happy with them whilst they are good... Do you not understand that is how the human nature is?

As for the cost of PT... you certainly seem to be suggesting that no one on here complains about the cost of that to... erm, we're all aware that has risen extortionately, it's why we're all in cars. What's your point

Seeing as the tax burden on the citizens of this country of ours is at such a high rate right now, it's not unreasonable to complain when costs of transport increase so sharply.

As far as I can tell your original point was

"Don't complain about the costs of using a car all of you, listen to me! it's 'cheap', HONEST"

But now your point is

"Don't complain about the costs of using a car all of you, listen to me! It's been 'cheap' for ages (sure now it's absolutely sky-rocketing but we'll ignore that becuase it's been 'cheap' for ages!)"