Safe Speed Forums

Decided to make them threads in own right ...

We instruct to position to maximise safety margins and views ahead. I not that Paul has already mentioned "creating space" in a reply!

You create the space (The S in COAST! ) so that you can plan, prepare and execute manoeuvres in safety. This is probably the most difficult concept for the majority to understand - we have all the tailgating horror stories, the cyclist forced off the road at a pinch point and so on because of the sheer inability on the part of a lot of average/weak average and inexperienced to do this.

Basically it comes about with practice, experience and common sense - but this "Positioning and Space" problem seems to be very prevalent in most of the incidents we atttend - and I'd say is a significant driver error - and the speed element contributes to outcome.


This is why I think this part of "PLAN" deserves debate and collective advice and in-forum learning.

We create space to prepare for the unexpected. Most of us on here do create this by allowing a gap to inch into in case the muppet behind is slow to brake at the lights and so on.

But on the road .. we position the vehicle to maximise the view. This is what I was getting at with the "cornering thread" which Ian explained perfectly. at this stage we refine the plan, strategy and safety margin so that we can complete the manoeuvre once we have decided it is safe to proceed.

Again this is linked to O and A in COAST.



So hazards affect your positioning as well.

You identify a hazard on the nearside - why would I suggest steering a course a bit closer to the crown of the road - and what might we do if the road condition makes this not an option?

Over to others: What would be your hot tips to an inexperienced driver regarding position and things to consider in your "PLAN"?

What should you ask yourself when driving or cycling past a row of parked cars? What is the rule of thumb regarding position? And what is a useful observation technique on approach?


How would you improve the view into a nearside road junction?

What about your following in traffic position?

Your overtaking position?

Position when turning into a junction?

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Go on then. I'll bite for once.



(a) are any of them likely to move;
(b) is anybody likely to be opening a door
(c) is a pedestrian likely to emerge from between two cars

So watch for signs of movement in the cars; engine starting/running; indicators; lights; wipers; watch for movements on the footpath; signs of children playing.



Crown of road or straddling centre line if oncoming traffic allows. If not, proceed very cautiously. Observation technique as above.



Position towards centre line. If applicable, drive deeper into the junction before turning.



Position for (i) safe distance to allow reaction/braking time (ii) best view around/over/under car ahead (will vary continuously)



Select appropriate gear; move up to approx. 1s gap where previous observations suggest an opportunity to overtake. Usually towards crown of road but may be nearside to get early view to nearside of vehicle ahead round LH bend or maximum visibility on RH bend. Drop back to following position if not on.



Not sure what you mean. LH or RH?

Should I be watching for someone opening a door and also be aware of my space if I am passing cars in the opposite direction?

Should you be always be thinking about avoiding numpties or have the attitude that if they cause you to smash in to them then it is their fault and you are not worried? Personally I wouldn't want the hassle of a crash or an injured person on my mind so it is best to avopid numpties I think.

The best quote I heard about accident avoidance was from my old man, which I think he got from his old man, and that is:

If you have time to flash your lights and sound your horn, you have time to take avoiding action

What you think of that advice in gear?

Andrew

_________________
It's a scam........or possibly a scamola


Homer Simpson

It's good, but there are exceptions.

One example that comes to mind is when the chap you're overtaking decides to pull out to overtake (i.e. he's pulling out and will strieke your nearside). You might be able to brake. You might be able to move further right and make room. But mostly you have to try and stop him coming. I'd probably expect to give a horn warning first and brake or steer second. Another alternative (a really scary one) is to try to get far enough forward that he sees you - I might do this if I judged no room on the right and where braking won't avoid the crash.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

FWIW, whether to flash your lights has always been a quandry. Does a flash of the headlights mean that you are letting the other driver pull out or does it mean that you are warning the other driver of your presence? If you flash your lights at a driver who is about to pull out on you, or who has opened his car door, that flash could be interpreted as "permission for him to continue". Now, I know what it says in the Highway Code, but that's not how it works on the ground.

WRT using your horn, for me that's now an instinctive part of my reaction to unexpected hazards. However, you can't expect another driver to actually hear your horn. Today's cars are so well insulated accoustically that it may not be possible to hear a horn sounded only a few yards away. (BTW, why isn't there a standard place for the horn button? I have use of three vehicles and each has the horn in a different position. The last time I tried to sound my horn, I pressed the centre of the wheel and nothing happened!)

So, flashing your lights can give the wrong message and sounding your horn may be ineffective. That leaves careful observation, anticipation of where hazards might arise, and leaving open your options. Basically, you need time and space. The time lets you think through a stituation and take appropriate action, the space increases your options (should you brake, steer, or accelerate away from a hazard) and gives room for a hazard to develop without becoming a problem. Personally, I think that you can to some extent trade one for the other, for example, mitigating reduced space by buying more time when you have the tailgater from hell on your bumper.

When approaching a line of parked cars on the left, moving to the right increases your angle of vision and so means you can see kiddies about to run out from between those cars sooner. It also gives earlier sight of each car's exhaust and the road beneath the car, so you can spot shadows and other clues sooner. The wider angle also lets you differentiate between headrests and people sooner. Moreover, if something does happen, there is more space for the hazard to develop before it becomes an accident. IOW, moving away from the hazard buys you both space and time. If for some reason you can't move over (e.g. the road is too narrow), you have to buy that time and compensate for loss of space some other way (e.g. by slowing down).

_________________
Will

Safespeed wrote:



I suppose this saying has come from a time when overtaking was restricted to race circuits

Andrew

_________________
It's a scam........or possibly a scamola


Homer Simpson

You're speaking of a time when people actually overtook, and not, as they do now, sit sheepishly in a queue at 30mph for their whole journey - despite there being plenty of safe overtaking opportunities.

Regards
Peter

Some very reassuring answers! Both Observer and Will - as good as the baby rats!


Flashing headlights is always difficult - because everyon interprets this one differently than the HC - and it is a case of experience and being abel to read the other person's intention and the situation. Little toot on the horn can help. If possible, I try to make eye contact, friendy smile, and another hand gesture to clarify.

Maybe we should have a poll or a survey to see what the general take on headlight flashing means to majority and then educate to standardise the common element. (Investigated a couple of collisions in the past as result of misinterpreting a headlight flash - and I think we have highlighted one important area to improve here. )

Again - no easy answers and maybe one for brainstorming the thinking tanks!

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Not sure why, but only just found this thread.

I've deliberately not (yet) read subsequient posts as I want to have a go at answering without further reference:



This space creation is absolutely paramount to maintaining a cocoon of safety for yourself *and others*. Not sure how to train/educate less advanced motorists and motorcyclists to do it - but somehow this must be high up on the agenda of road safety.


Agreed fully. Where there is a pinch point and braking "suddenly" becomes the only option, speed of travel is almost a fourth power contributer to risk.


Yes - and by always being on the look out for an escape lane for when things don't go to plan - to know where it is I mean and go for it instinctively without having to seek it out as a reaction.



You'd suggest it simply to increase - by many fold - the time to deal with a potential hazard that materialised. If you are only a few feet from the hazard zone, a dog (say) appearing from a footpath at a trot - two paces of kerb and straight into the road. If you'r approaching in a car on the crown or further over, you have several doggie-pace units of time to make a call of action - which can be go left, go right, slow up or speed up - or any appropriate pair. If you'r hard(ish) left, you have no "go left" option - and only the two doggie-paces of kerb crossing time to decide what to do. It is also possible that you will get a better view UP the footpath (or whatever) and gain a few valuable miliseconds of extra reaction time. All in all - best to get further away from high hazard densities.



oops - just done that I think.


As - before I get to them - a quick sweep of what I can see on the pavement/in the front gardens of the houses to the left of them - won't be able to do much of that once I get along side them. Any activity and right down with the speed as I go past.
Also - anything visible UNDER the cars - cats waiting to puonce out etc?

Are any of the cars occupied - and have I been seen?

Will I have room/time to deal with any that take off without warning?
anyone on the opposite side of the road looking across (possibly indicatting unforeseen pedestrian/animal activity)?

Anything coming towards me - or any turnings/near-blind drives on the offside of the road? If not, I know I'll be able to move over a lot further than convention dictates to get distance between me and the dense hazard zone when I get there.

NOTE_ - I've just reread the question - and realise that I've answered how I would preempt rather than what do do if - the anticipatory way! Not deliberate - but I guess that's me!



Ooops See above LOL



Get as far over to the right as practicable, consistent with not creating/exacerbating other hazards - which could well include traffic coming behind you.




Stagger - to see one or other side past the one in front.



Very dependent on power of vehicle. In my big-lumped Accord, I hang well back - staggered one way or the other (preferably offside out - but if the one in fromt is well out, nearsaide can be quite useful too).



Again very dependent on other traffic and road engineering.

If there's nothing going to catch me up from behind while I manouvre, and provided I'm not going to get in anyone else's way of any similar activity (eg at a crossroads), I'd go for maximum visibility all round consistent with minimum wheel twiddling when turning. If one is coming up behind me, I'd adopt a "highway code" position and speed to telegraph better my activities and intentions (supplementing trafficators).

Howzat?

Roger ... I would give you a good pass, along with Will and Observer ...

Shall dig out some more notes soon .. have a drawer full.


Might even see if I still have copy of the little written test we took as well.

Some of it was on Traffic Law which prevailed at the time - but there were a few questions on technique - and these might be fun....

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.