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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 00:24 
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gopher wrote:
weepej wrote:
gopher wrote:
Why do you think that road KSI have failed to continue the falling trend since the reduction in Traffic Police and the introduction of automated enforcement?


KSI's are still falling, the assertion is that they are falling at a slower rate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5387568.stm


Okay....

Why is the rate slowing...


Good question.

Given the incredible increase in the number of drivers passing their tests you might also ask why its not actually increasing.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 00:30 
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gopher wrote:
If they do and you hit them, your speed was inappropriate by definition.

So do we agree?


Not really, we have a responsibility to not pull out in front of someone, but of course the faster you go the longer the piece of road becomes where somebody else who introduces themselves to it in front of you is 'pulling out in front' of you.

Its very complex. I just think a good percentage of drivers should slow down by a good 15% in ALL situations, certainly in urban areas.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 00:33 
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weepej wrote:
I don't need to. The faster you go, the further out in front of you stretches the area in which, if something happens, you won't be able to avoid it.


Hmm, I think we're talking at cross purposes here. If there is a appreciable risk of something happening in front of you which you are utterly unable to avoid becoming embroiled in then you are absolutely going too fast. If this risk does not exist, then there is no significant danger in increasing speed. A roadsign or speed camera is utterly ignorant of these factors.

Of course we can argue the toss on what constitutes an appreciable risk. If we're worried about a meteor striking the earth mere millimeters from our front bumpers then we'd never leave the house. More sensibly perhaps, a driver coming the other way could fall suddenly ill at the wheel and swerve into our path, but we cannot drive around without passing opposing traffic!

This is where the risk management of drivers, and other road users comes into play. One of the keystones Paul laid down was that humans can become quite adept at this real-time risk processing, and indeed the majority of drivers are very good at it, as evidenced by the relative infrequency of collisions, given the levels of road useage.

The other key factor is that we must have a certain degree of faith that other road users will remain sufficiently predictable, otherwise we are back to the analogy of the opposing traffic swerving into our path. It is in this sense that we can start to approach the red-light issues.

Of course it is not always automatically dangerous to pass a red light, unless of course the controlling computer has some prior knowledge of impending meteor strikes. There is the apocryphal tale of the Australian lady who waited so long at a red light that she required hospitalisation for dehydration (four days at the last telling). One might suggest, however, that if another road user is there to witness the violation, then it was not a safe occasion! Modern lights have a plethora of sensors providing feedback on traffic flow, and they mostly tend to turn green on approach if the way ahead is clear.

The problem with passing a red light in the presence of other road users is that it unequivocally destroys the concept of predictability. This is not directly analogous to expectations of speed, mainly for the reason that the Eyeball Mk 1 is quite inept at accurately measuring things which fall outside our sphere of evolution, such as speed (above a sprint) and altitude. One does not view oncoming traffic at a junction and calculate "that red car is coming towards me at 28.5mph, so I am safe to pull out as long as the gap is at least 37.9m long", instead assessing the rate of closure, and making a real-time judgement. That said, finding a vehicle travelling at 60mph in a confined residential street is also capable of destroying the concept of predictability, but then noone is suggesting that that is safe or acceptable!

The crux of the matter is that speed limits are not always being set on the grounds of safety these days, and the manner of their enforcement likewise neglects the concept of safety, in preference for blind adherence to the letter of the law, which does not equate to automatic safety. Red light cameras do, of course, exist, but they are nowehere near as proliferative as speed cameras. The infinitely flexible human brain provides a far more reliable arbiter of what is safe, and is capable of a much more appropriate response to all manner of dangerous practices including, but not limited to, the use of excessive speed and the violation of red lights.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 00:35 
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gopher wrote:
Just so it helps - An appropriate speed is one that you can travel at and stop within the space you know to be clear.


Ah, there we go, I don't agree with your definition of an appropriate speed.

Its not appropriate to travel down a road at 50mph in an urban area even though you can see the road is clear in front of you.

There's people on the pavement, cyclists, junctions coming onto your road, driveways.

Its not just about how far you can see to be clear is it, but also, whats going on around you that you can, and cannot see.

Would you travel at great speeds through an area where deer roam if you can see the road ahead is clear? Probably not, becuase deer can and do jump out of hedges.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 00:36 
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weepej wrote:

Good question.

Given the incredible increase in the number of drivers passing their tests you might also ask why its not actually increasing.


Sorry that's bull.

The number of cars on the road has been increasing year on year since they were invented. KSIs increased year on year until the late 60's (Okay that's a guess but I know it's around then).

Since then we had

More traffic police
Better roads
better cars
better emergency services
better hospitals
better road side assistance

And all this worked to reduce KSIs by a measurable amount (as each got better) year on year.

In 92 we introduced speed cameras and reduced traffic police.

The rate slowed.

We still have

Better cars
Better roads
Better emergency Services
better hospitals
better roas side assistance

We also have

An excellent automated speed infringement prosecuting device
and less Traffic police.


Why do you think it went wrong?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 00:38 
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RobinXe wrote:
The problem with passing a red light in the presence of other road users is that it unequivocally destroys the concept of predictability.


So does travelling at a faster speed than other people would expect you too.

edit: sorry, missed that bit in your post!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 00:39 
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Lets be clear on something. Given the (more reliable) reporting of hospitalisations, the trend of decreasing road deaths appears to have pretty much stagnated. We are not benefiting from any sort of improvement beyond that attributable to random deviation.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 00:41 
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weepej wrote:
edit: sorry, missed that bit in your post!


Not to worry. I too have been guilty of jumping to reply based on a snippet I've just read, without continuing to consider the remainder of the post! :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 00:42 
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weepej wrote:
gopher wrote:
If they do and you hit them, your speed was inappropriate by definition.

So do we agree?


Not really, we have a responsibility to not pull out in front of someone, but of course the faster you go the longer the piece of road becomes where somebody else who introduces themselves to it in front of you is 'pulling out in front' of you.

Its very complex. I just think a good percentage of drivers should slow down by a good 15% in ALL situations, certainly in urban areas.


I'm sorry but that is complete crap.

What has "pulling out in front of someone" got to do with it?

If you are travelling at an appropriate speed (A speed that you can stop in within the space you know to be clear) then by definition you are going to stop before the person that pulls out

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 00:47 
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Perhaps we'd find an accord if the wording was changed from 'know' to 'reasonably expect'?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 00:54 
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RobinXe wrote:
Perhaps we'd find an accord if the wording was changed from 'know' to 'reasonably expect'?


I'm not sure. I'm not an advanced driver but I don't think I've ever (ok not in a long time) driven to expectation which to my mind is another way of expressing "Reasonably expect".

Is "know" "expect the very worst" and is that == stop

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 05:22 
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The Highway Code 117-126: Control of the Vehicle

Rule 126: "Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear"
The word 'know' does not appear anywhere in Rule 126 at all.
Perhaps more importantly, the word 'well' has been habitually omitted.

It's worth noting that Emergency Brake Assist was invented because most people won't brake hard enough to either 'threshold' brake, or activate the ABS.
In other words, it appears that the inventors of EBA think that the average driver's ability to stop 'well' is insufficient. Also, there are indications that certain governments in Europe agree, since EBA may be mandated by much of Europe in the near future.

Of course, stopping 'well' is more than just the ability to stop on a dime and make ten cents change. On the road, most people seem to treasure the ability to avoid using the limits of one's own abilites, as well as to avoid coercing others to use their limits.

Still, why is steering around danger not mentioned even once? On the one hand, it's obvious that you won't always have an extra lane to steer into and out of. On the other hand, above a certain speed, it takes more distance to stop, than to evade. In many cases, stopping merely makes the incident larger, and harder for someone else to avoid.
(Obviously, certain places and situations physically prohibit evasion; as long as there is something potentially left to evade, I would probably slow down until the moment it would make more sense to accelerate away from it.)

The preceding was posted by an Amerikan who came here to learn about becoming a better driver, as well as the social forces road users exert on each other, and the political forces that are exerted on - against? - road users.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


Last edited by The Rush on Sat Oct 17, 2009 17:07, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:49 
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weepej wrote:

Its not just about how far you can see to be clear is it, but also, whats going on around you that you can, and cannot see.



I completely agree and I would be surprised if many people on here would not.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 14:01 
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weepej wrote:
gopher wrote:
Just so it helps - An appropriate speed is one that you can travel at and stop within the space you know to be clear.


Ah, there we go, I don't agree with your definition of an appropriate speed.

Its not appropriate to travel down a road at 50mph in an urban area even though you can see the road is clear in front of you.

There's people on the pavement, cyclists, junctions coming onto your road, driveways.

Its not just about how far you can see to be clear is it, but also, whats going on around you that you can, and cannot see.

Would you travel at great speeds through an area where deer roam if you can see the road ahead is clear? Probably not, becuase deer can and do jump out of hedges
.


You have just defeated your own argument IMO.

What you have just said, maybe unwittingly, is that a safe speed is not about a posted limit but on the environment and circumstances.

Welcome to the club at last. It's what we've been saying all along.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 14:27 
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weepej wrote:
Johnnytheboy wrote:
I'd rather the law was changed so I didn't risk breaking it while driving perfectly safely.


You don't risk breaking it though do you, you KNOW you're breaking it; you know you're doing 35mph, or 65mph. Apologies if I've got you wrong here, but I don't think I have.

Well, I fully expect to seeing you supporting red light jumping cyclists in the same beath in future then.

After all, they obviously think the law should not apply to them, they do it safely, they look, go slowly across the junction in the majority of cases, and are quite careful and 'safe' about it, well, at least they think they are.

If you don't support red light jumping cyclists its a bit hypocritical IMO.


Oh dear....

So in your opinion, NO-ONE EVER INADVERTENTLY BREAKS THE SPEED LIMIT?

To restate what I just said in case you missed it:

just because I don't believe in rigid enforcement of speed limits doesn't mean I set out to exceed the speed limit. Abiding by, and agreeing with a law are two different things.

And no, I don't support red-light jumping cyclists, but I don't support red-light-jumping drivers either, so I fail to see the hypocrisy. But in both cases I would not wish to see them prosecuted if they INADVERTENTLY ran a red light.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 14:56 
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Another one in the eye for Hjeg2 and Weepej

I haven't seen this one before. Dear Paul gets a mention.

"One of the most dramatic mobile camera failures was on the A4139 at Pembroke where KSIs had increased 10 times - from a 0.7 a year average before the camera to seven in 2002-03."

http://www.youclaim.co.uk/Personal_Inju ... p?spid=149

Read it and weep...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 20:54 
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Big Tone wrote:
Another one in the eye for Hjeg2 and Weepej

I haven't seen this one before. Dear Paul gets a mention.

"One of the most dramatic mobile camera failures was on the A4139 at Pembroke where KSIs had increased 10 times - from a 0.7 a year average before the camera to seven in 2002-03."

http://www.youclaim.co.uk/Personal_Inju ... p?spid=149

Read it and weep...


Well, let's wait for the RTTM a?

Sick joking aside safety equaipment can cause problems, seatbelts kill some people, so do airbags.

Your link however tells a different story about the general application of speed cameras in the area.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 21:05 
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Big Tone wrote:
Welcome to the club at last. It's what we've been saying all along.


I wish people would stop the welcome on board line. Its like you want to believe I support the Safe Speed campaign.

I certainly do not.

I am vehemently opposed to Safe Speed's call to scrap all speed cameras immediately.

I am vehemently opposed Safe Speed's anti 20mph zone stance.

I strongly believe the Safe Speed campaign is nothing more than window dressing for people who simply don't like speed limits because it means they can't drive as fast as they want, which in the majority of cases IMO would be much too fast.

I strongly believe that 80% of drivers need to slow down by a good 15%, and in many places (such as country roads) much, much more.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 21:34 
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weepej wrote:

I strongly believe the Safe Speed campaign is nothing more than window dressing for people who simply don't like speed limits because it means they can't drive as fast as they want, which in the majority of cases IMO would be much too fast.


I, as a non-driver, must say that I disagree with you.

There are people who drive at speeds that are much to fast for the conditions and their abilities. I don't think they are here at Safe Speed.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 21:40 
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Thatsnews wrote:
weepej wrote:

I strongly believe the Safe Speed campaign is nothing more than window dressing for people who simply don't like speed limits because it means they can't drive as fast as they want, which in the majority of cases IMO would be much too fast.


I, as a non-driver, must say that I disagree with you.

There are people who drive at speeds that are much to fast for the conditions and their abilities. I don't think they are here at Safe Speed.


I don't care where they are ThatsNews, I want them slowed down.

(and let's not get the campaign mixed up the the BB)


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