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 Post subject: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 21:12 
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http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Six ... 3996959.jp


http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Six ... 3996959.jp

scotsman wrote:
Six cyclists suffer head injuries each month in Lothians



NO LESSON LEARNED: Michael Meaney with his mum Angela


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View GalleryBy IAN SWANSON
MORE than six cyclists a month need hospital treatment for head injuries as a result of road accidents in the Lothians.

Official figures show 165 cyclists ended up at hospital after accidents in 2006/07, with 77 of them suffering head injuries.

The casualties included 76 children, 42 of whom had head injuries.

The statistics show Lothians roads were the most dangerous in Scotland for cyclists, and the figures today prompted calls by cycling campaigners for more cycle paths and for cycle training to be incorporated into the school curriculum.

Ian Maxwell, spokesman for Edinburgh-based cycle campaign group Spokes, said today that the accident statistics were worrying

He said: "We would like to see more segregated cycle lanes so those who are not so confident riding in traffic will be given greater confidence when cycling from A to B.

"We would like to see cycle training being a core part of the curriculum, not just an add-on. That is the only way we are going to get the take-up that will almost certainly reduce the injury level among children and adults in the future."

Mr Maxwell acknowledged the Capital had provided some cycleways but said it could do a lot better.

"We are seeing quite a significant increase in cycling despite some of the gaps, but if we had more provision we would see more cyclists on the road," he said.

He said a growth in the number of cyclists would also help reduce accidents and injuries.

"Experience elsewhere is that as the number of cyclists grows the proportion of accidents drops. If there are more people on bikes, other road-users get more accustomed to them."

But Mr Maxwell said most cycling campaigners were opposed to making the wearing of helmets compulsory.

He said other countries which had introduced a law on helmets had seen a drop in cycling, with a consequent loss of the health benefits it brought.

He said: "It's one more factor that would stop people jumping on a bike – and it would be very difficult to enforce.

"If you are cycling on a busy main road among fast-moving traffic, a helmet is very desirable, but if you're off-road on a cycle path through pleasant surroundings, it is less so. Enforcement would have to cover both situations."

The city council said cycling promotion was an important feature in its transport agenda.

A spokeswoman said: "The number of cycle lanes is increasing and we are well on our way to meeting our target of creating a cycling network across the city."

She said cyclists could now use bus lanes on main roads and new off-road cycle paths recently opened from Ratho Station towards the city centre, between Gilmerton and Dalkeith and from Newcraighall station to the Queen Margaret University campus.

She added: "The active schools programme promotes safe and fun bike use to pupils through schemes such as Ready Steady Bike. By the end of the current academic year, 1600 P6 pupils will have received the Scottish cycle training scheme in Edinburgh."

Michael's still taking risks
DESPITE being dragged under a bus for 60 feet and having his skin torn off, 14-year-old Michael Meaney still refuses to wear a helmet when he rides his bike.

The Northfield Drive teen slipped under the seven-ton vehicle on Duddingston Road, but 18 months and several skin grafts later, his mum Angela still can't get him to wear a helmet.

She said: "I've tried taking his bike away but he just rides someone else's.

"I even tried to get him to campaign around schools to show other children the extent of his injuries, but he was having none of it."

Angela added: "He doesn't remember a thing about the accident, which is maybe why he doesn't worry about it."





I am baffled. I wear a helmet.. My wife does.. Our kids do. All the relatives do.

I do not take safety for granted because of a bit of polystyrene inside a plastic casing either :wink: The "lid" though does soften the impact if really unlucky and can be then held to be of benefit :wink:

I do admit that there is something really arousing about my wife when she removes helmets and shakes her head :lol: It leads to kitten production :wink:

As for a lid "spoilng hair-dos".. :roll: I think the wind and rain do as much damage there :wink:

Fors and againsts are a heated argument . but I am in the "pro-lid camp" as I've seen the "lack of helmet and the damage done" in the past. :popcorn:

C'mon wuzzle and weepej ... Argue the toss here :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:43 
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Don't know about wuzzle or weepj, but I for one fully support the work of the i-SUC campaign:

http://www.bikehelmetsnow.org/2008/04/s ... usade.html

:D


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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 23:32 
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Peyote wrote:


a rather strained attempt at irony ? :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:03 
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Peyote wrote:
Don't know about wuzzle or weepj, but I for one fully support the work of the i-SUC campaign:

http://www.bikehelmetsnow.org/2008/04/s ... usade.html

:D


But I think I look 8-) in my gear :D

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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 13:08 
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ed_m wrote:

a rather strained attempt at irony ? :wink:


I think irony is usually a bit more subtle than that!


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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 13:09 
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In Gear wrote:
But I think I look 8-) in my gear :D


You and me both IG!

Most non-cyclists don't think so though!


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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 22:35 
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:rotfl: Peyote.. he wear legging with yellow stripe sometimes. He think this most 8-)

But I should talk.. since I wear a pastel shade skort.. lemon shade skort.. fishnet tights und even laddered lacy hold ups :rotfl: Und Krissi


Well .. I have to admit Mama would disapprove there of the fishnets. the black lacies.. the laddered tights./ the sequinned "see me dazzling" vest :rotfl:

But.. it gets us noticed with appreciative male glances .. But :shhhh: this secret on the internet und I will not tell Ted und Mike //

DOH! I just did .. no matter .. I can get over it . . all I have to do ist :twisted: :wink: und wait on him like a slave here. It OK . I am 8-) about this. I grant the marital favours :lol: :boxedin: :bighand: :drink2: :bunker: :hehe: if you understand me a bit :jester: :wink:

Ach.. I am pussy cat really. Andreas ist cute und well meaning . like a big lollopy dog really :lol: Krissi.. I learn from older sister :hehe: :twisted: But she OK really. I am sure you know deepest downy und not get all huffy :hissyfit: as we do like und respect you fully my friend. Krissi was upset to think you think her foe when she really a pal. As Andreas und his chums who are just like big cuddly dogs really :lol:

But mate./ I think we make a point in that there zero excuse not to see us here :wink: We buy our cycling gear from an on-line Swiss supplier. We know we in some fashion of sorts.. but do admit we only replace when we wearthe gear out :lol: I call it value for money. Not planet hugging// but respecting what my cash buys und just wantiing to get the fullest und toppest value. I not care one jot if last year's fashion either. If itsuit me . flatter me. I carry off the style. und some tell me I'd look OK in a bin liner :lol: :shock: :? :?

OK I am flattered by such comment :wink: Whether genuine.. :wink: I choose as a size 8 in M&S to think so :wink: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 21:13 
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I cannot see the arguement for not wearing a lid after all should I come off anything which softens the impact between my head and a hard surface has got to be worthwhile. Is it vanity? or is there a logical arguement to be had? if so perhaps someone can enlighten me.

Personally I am against compulsion, far to much rule and regulation and not enough common sense these days. The more we regulate the less willing people are to comply having reasoned for themselves that something is a good idea to do so without being told to by the state under threat of penalty.


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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 13:11 
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I have long lost count of how many cyclists I have seen in hospitals, hospices and nursing homes who simply would not be there if they had worn a helmet!. :(

To see fit healthy people cut down in the prime of their life with no hope of rehabilitation is absolutely soul destroying for them, their family and me :cry:

Nuff said...

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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 16:21 
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Ian wrote:
I cannot see the arguement for not wearing a lid after all should I come off anything which softens the impact between my head and a hard surface has got to be worthwhile. Is it vanity? or is there a logical arguement to be had? if so perhaps someone can enlighten me.


It's a big debate in cycling circles how much extra risk helmets give in comparison to how much protection they provide. Have a look at http://www.cyclehelmets.org for some of the arguments. I would point out that it is quite a biased site, but it's more to give you an idea of the debate than persuade you one way or another. Personally, I'm neither pro or anti-helmets I'd rather people made there own minds up based on the evidence.

I believe most of the arguments for free choice focus on risk compensation theory, the additional size of the helmet and statistical results from population level studies. Many of which imply the benefits that cycle helmets purport to give are at best overplayed and at worst dangerous.

Bug Tone wrote:
I have long lost count of how many cyclists I have seen in hospitals, hospices and nursing homes who simply would not be there if they had worn a helmet!. :(

To see fit healthy people cut down in the prime of their life with no hope of rehabilitation is absolutely soul destroying for them, their family and me :cry:

Nuff said...


Purely playing Devils Advocate here, you cannot be sure they would be there if they had worn a helmet.

It's the use of these emotional, anecdotal arguments that clouds these kind of discussions. In exactly the same way as the "if Mr X had been driving at 30mph instead of 35mph he wouldn't have hit and killed little Johnny". There's far more to these things than what knee jerk instincts suggest. Hence why there is so much of a debate surrounding it.


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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 16:52 
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Peyote wrote:
Purely playing Devils Advocate here, you cannot be sure they would be there if they had worn a helmet.

True, we can't turn the clock back and re-enact the exact event wearing a helmet but, (Soz if this sounds like a teaching grand mum to suck eggs), these are my findings...

When a cyclist's head comes into contact with a hard object, the brain bounces around inside the skull - the results of which vary. I only get to see the most extreme casualties.

So if you surround the head with an impact-absorbing material, like polystyrene, this softens the blow thereby reducing the impact and limits any contusion to the head or brain.

If anyone doesn't believe me try head-butting a wall with and without a helmet. (Not trying to be factitious, honestly).


Peyote wrote:
It's the use of these emotional, anecdotal arguments that clouds these kind of discussions. In exactly the same way as the "if Mr X had been driving at 30mph instead of 35mph he wouldn't have hit and killed little Johnny". There's far more to these things than what knee jerk instincts suggest. Hence why there is so much of a debate surrounding it.

Absolutely Peyote and I hope I'm not guilty of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 20:55 
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Big Tone wrote:

When a cyclist's head comes into contact with a hard object, the brain bounces around inside the skull - the results of which vary. I only get to see the most extreme casualties.

So if you surround the head with an impact-absorbing material, like polystyrene, this softens the blow thereby reducing the impact and limits any contusion to the head or brain.

If anyone doesn't believe me try head-butting a wall with and without a helmet. (Not trying to be factitious, honestly).


Yep, this is how understand some of the effects of an impact on the head, unfortunately the debate as I understand it seems to be that the energy absorbed by the helmet is so small as to be negligable in many RTIs. I've heard reports from several folk in the medical profession and there's just as much disagreement between professional medics as there is the generally cycling population!

Big Tone wrote:
Absolutely Peyote and I hope I'm not guilty of that.


Sorry I didn't mean to pick on you!

I guess there is something to be said for professionals who only see the most extreme examples, i.e. if a Physician (to pluck an example out of the air) only sees the cadavers of unhelmeted cyclists then I would suggest that their opinion could be slightly biased.

Though having read many of your (overwhelmingly objective) posts on here I'm quite sure you're aware of any potential bias!


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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 21:44 
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Peyote wrote:
Big Tone wrote:

When a cyclist's head comes into contact with a hard object, the brain bounces around inside the skull - the results of which vary. I only get to see the most extreme casualties.

So if you surround the head with an impact-absorbing material, like polystyrene, this softens the blow thereby reducing the impact and limits any contusion to the head or brain.

If anyone doesn't believe me try head-butting a wall with and without a helmet. (Not trying to be factitious, honestly).


Yep, this is how understand some of the effects of an impact on the head, unfortunately the debate as I understand it seems to be that the energy absorbed by the helmet is so small as to be negligable in many RTIs. I've heard reports from several folk in the medical profession and there's just as much disagreement between professional medics as there is the generally cycling population!

Big Tone wrote:
Absolutely Peyote and I hope I'm not guilty of that.


Sorry I didn't mean to pick on you!

I guess there is something to be said for professionals who only see the most extreme examples, i.e. if a Physician (to pluck an example out of the air) only sees the cadavers of unhelmeted cyclists then I would suggest that their opinion could be slightly biased.

Though having read many of your (overwhelmingly objective) posts on here I'm quite sure you're aware of any potential bias!



Well .. I am a medico. OK so I'm a lurgy man and not A&E but......

head injuries can and do kill. We all have different density of skull bone thickness and whilst some have a thick skull bone.. others do not = and this not known until tragedy. Which why we advise or make laws to protect against the worst outcome :popcorn:

I choose to wear a helmet . as do rest of family. I do not find it a chore .. nor do I find it messes up my hair (and I do have a decent head of hair - per those who KNOW ME in the FLESH :)

Ob sure it depends on where hit. impact.. how the head hit the kerb or other hard surface here.

Helmet may seem plastic encased polystyrene,.. but this still aborbs some shock impact in a fall and can save lives per PEER reviewed research at Hamburg./Heidelberg/Wien/Oregon/ Universities :popcorn:

So ./. Waljer in Bath says one thing and is contradicted by others elsewhere :scratchchin: Like I once said.. "peer review" does not mean "set in stone" here :wink: and really means "doodly squat" to quote a Star Trek hero :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 21:56 
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No problem Peyote. We’re cool, I hope, I'm sure :)

When one is drowning all one can think of is water. I am very well aware I spend too much time in water ;) In fact, as a member, Claire and moderators do well to tollerate me I think. :thumbsup: ;)

The question,IMHO, is what do you do when you know what is right before the proof or political will catches up?

I will do what's right for me and the people I love and care for as much as I can, within the law. (And that isn’t easy at times I can tell you)

BTW, as contradictory as it sounds, I would not legislate in favour of wearing helmets and that’s not what I am advocating here. (I’m sick to death of laws for every last damn thing).

I personally wear one out of an informed choice and that’s where I am coming from.

Less legislation and more common sense.

Long day, burned out. But not so burned out as to wish everyone a peaceful night.

Luv Tone X

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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 22:28 
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Exactly - we wear lids by informed choice and a little knowledge of the shock absorbence of this mere polystyrene mould topped in a layer of plastic...

If worn properly .. they can help. :wink: I think we suit our helmet choices which we do admittedly co-ordinate according to whatever suits the rest of the gear :lol: We call it being "cool and trendy" :boxedin: :lol:

PS Peyote.. I do really like and respect you. Enjoy reading your input and I consider you a PAL! i know we may not agree on some things ,. but hey.. that's the tapestry of life! :wink: :) :bighand: :drink: :drink2: So even if we may disagree on occasion - pals can have different opinions on this and that :wink:

I guess that goes for all on the board here :wink: from time to time.. Odd spats and hissy fits :hissyfit: But we remain pals. Normal life - eh?

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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 06:05 
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I bought my first cycle helmet 20 odd years ago. It was not cheap. I have a very large head and no cheap helmets were made big enough. :lol:

I found the arguments against cycle helmets at the time a bit contradictory. :? A higher risk of head and neck injury after a fall was one of the main ones put forward at the time iirc (A similar view was put forward with motorcycle helmets in the States for some time). We are by law required to wear a helmet to ride a speed limited :30: 50cc moped. A bicycle can, with very little effort, exceed the speed a moped is restricted to (down hill) so what is the difference.

My head was worth more to me, intact, than a little loss in the cool stakes. I have just purchased a new lid this month. I need to lose some weight and cycling is my preferred method of exercise to do it. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 22:16 
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Big Tone wrote:
I personally wear one out of an informed choice and that’s where I am coming from.

Less legislation and more common sense.


Mad Moggie wrote:
Exactly - we wear lids by informed choice


Wise words Tone and MM, I think the key thing is the informed choice bit, trouble is all to often it is the folk who make the legislation that don't have an informed opinion!


theboxers wrote:
We are by law required to wear a helmet to ride a speed limited :30: 50cc moped. A bicycle can, with very little effort, exceed the speed a moped is restricted to (down hill) so what is the difference.


Yep, unfortunately a bicycle helmet and a motorbike/moped helmet offer two significantly different amounts of protection. I'm not convinced a bicycle helmet would provide any benefit whatsoever in an impact at 30mph, I'm almost certain a motorbike helmet would.

Personally I'm not too fussed about wearing a helmet, I find it can protect against flies, rain, low branches as well as providing some protection against abrasions, scratches and the like if I do stack it. I'm under no illusions about the lack of protection it would afford in a RTI though, and this is where I have the big issue with the current "public" view of cycle helmets. They're great for low speed impacts against fixed objects, but the energies involved on the roads are far higher than any of the current batch of helmets are produced for, and with material technology at the stage it is currently at, I don't think a useful, road cycle helmet is going to be available for a long time yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 22:42 
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This week's star letter in CW makes for a rather interesting slant on the debate. CW writer says he had

Quote:

teh misfortune to have an argument with a car on Saturday :shock:

An oncoming driver didn't see me and turned right across the road in front of me (adding weight to the lette the other week that a driver will hit you whether wearing hi-viz or not..


Disagree on that one. Or let's put it this way - we'd do 'em for careless here :furious:

Quote:

I was wearing a bright yellow Endura Air Defence jacket... :shock:

I had nowhere to go but straight into the side of her car., at speed


:scratchchin: Surely .. he would have seen her approaching the junction and eased off just in case . you never can know! :roll:

Quote:

All I can say is I was grateful for my cycling kit as I bounced off the side of her ca and my bike went skidding down the road. My jacket stopped the road burn. - my long fingered gloves shredded - but my knuckles didn''t - an my helmet took the impact as the side of my head hit the road. The helmet split, so I shudder to think what would have happened if I hadn't been wearing one

I agree that helmets won't be your saviour in every case, but I.m now convinced they do increase a rider's chances in the event of a collision. So, other than feeling I've been hit by a train and having some nasty bruising down my left shoulder and side, I think I got off lightly. I hope my bike is not too long in the repair shop. At least the driver was insured!



What a nice, comon sense and letter, and refreshingly void of bile in reality! :bow: Hope this guy makes a full and speedy recovery :bow: :bighand: Sorry to hear of the mishap.

I guess it's when head hits pavement and the helmet absorbs the impact when folk become fans of a lid :popcorn:

Paul was right: the helmet issue perhaps does run parallel to the speed cam debate.. only I think there's more tangible proof that a helmet actually helps rather than hinders safety here :popcorn: :bunker: :popcorn:

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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 22:54 
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Peyote wrote:
Big Tone wrote:
I personally wear one out of an informed choice and that’s where I am coming from.

Less legislation and more common sense.


Mad Moggie wrote:
Exactly - we wear lids by informed choice


Wise words Tone and MM, I think the key thing is the informed choice bit, trouble is all to often it is the folk who make the legislation that don't have an informed opinion!



I think I am in the camp of the CW star letter writer :wink: I like my lid most because it keeps my head dry and free from flies .. YUCK!

Peyote wrote:
theboxers wrote:
We are by law required to wear a helmet to ride a speed limited :30: 50cc moped. A bicycle can, with very little effort, exceed the speed a moped is restricted to (down hill) so what is the difference.


Yep, unfortunately a bicycle helmet and a motorbike/moped helmet offer two significantly different amounts of protection. I'm not convinced a bicycle helmet would provide any benefit whatsoever in an impact at 30mph, I'm almost certain a motorbike helmet would.


Different designs mate :popcorn: A motorbike lid would be a bit heavy on a bicycle though.. I think it would slow us down a bit :lol;

Peyote wrote:
Personally I'm not too fussed about wearing a helmet, I find it can protect against flies, rain, low branches as well as providing some protection against abrasions, scratches and the like if I do stack it. I'm under no illusions about the lack of protection it would afford in a RTI though, and this is where I have the big issue with the current "public" view of cycle helmets. They're great for low speed impacts against fixed objects, but the energies involved on the roads are far higher than any of the current batch of helmets are produced for, and with material technology at the stage it is currently at, I don't think a useful, road cycle helmet is going to be available for a long time yet.



Oh.. I think we are constantly developing safety enhancers here. I think we will come up with a stylish light weight lid which will deliver max protection fairly soon - especially if we do end up being priced off the road through unaffordable fuel and congestion charges - though high fuel costs are already beginning to show an impact :wink: :popcorn:

I posted up the CW letter for another slant on gear from another cyclist. Letter was the STAR letter and he won the Carbon Airstick this week :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Cycling Lids.. Oops!
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 00:13 
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Peyote wrote:
I'm not convinced a bicycle helmet would provide any benefit whatsoever in an impact at 30mph, I'm almost certain a motorbike helmet would.


Hmmm...

Please don't hate me Peyote but I have to take issue with that one :bunker:

I cycle every day of the working week and as I have said on SS before - it's without doubt the most dangerous thing I ever do!

I don't get to 20 mph too much on my route to work and back, let alone 30 and I never see others doing more than me so, :bunker: this 30 mph thing is somewhat emotive IMHO :bunker: Most people who use the roads most of the time are not in competition for the Tour De France and I would be very surprised if most people hit 30 mph very often on their regular journey.

The actual problem is that a cyclist falls off, (gets knocked off), and the harm comes from falling downwards, not hitting another vehicle at 30 mph and flying through the air like Superman. (I see this with horse riders too BTW when the horse is spooked doing ~0 mph! :( )

So even if you were stationary while you are knocked off, the tendency is that your head hits the ground first or soon after some other extremity of your body. (I speak from personal experience too, sadly)

My worst accident ever on a road was on/off a bicycle at <10 mph, I swear this on everything that's precious to me! I was lucky to get back up, albeit after a few minutes from feeling bilious and in much pain the injuries of which which took me weeks/months to recover from :cry:

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