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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 07:44 
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Homeowners who have parking spaces on the road outside their home face higher council tax bills - even if they don't have a car.

Ministers have admitted that the availability of parking outside people's properties will be considered by inspectors assessing how much council tax households should pay. The "parking tax"- which will come on top of the cost of residents' parking permits - has been condemned as unfair by the Tories.

The Independent on Sunday has learnt that, in addition to the size of a property and its location, the availability of on-road parking, is being considered as a contributor to its value. Propertieson wide roads could pay hundreds of pounds more than similar-sized homes nearby.

"There seems to be no lengths to which the Government will go to tax another attribute of your home," said the MP Caroline Spelman.Ministers have already admitted that a fish pond, animal hutch or an "attractive flower arrangement" could count in home valuations.



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More than eight million homes are facing council tax increases because they enjoy nice views or for having off-street parking, claim the Tories.

Ministers have admitted they are building a database covering all 23million homes in England, and Conservatives say this means that residents of good neighbourhoods could be hit by huge council tax hikes.

Bills for next year are dropping on doormats up and down the country, with the Government expected to announce this week that in many areas the increases will exceed 5 per cent. The Conservatives revealed yesterseemsday that eight million homes have been logged on a "Big Brother" state database for having one or more offstreet parking places.

Details of the exact number of places - from one to "nine or more" - are kept on file.

A further 80,000 homes have been recorded for having a scenic view which impacts upon its value.

The database is broken down according to whether the house has views of the sea, hills, mountains, lakes, fields or golf courses.

Different codes are provided for "partial view" and "full view".

Conservative local government spokesman Eric Pickles said: "This is new evidence of the Labour Government's great council tax cover-up.

"Ministers' claims that the council tax revaluation in England was postponed have now been completely shredded.

"Every home in the country is being sized up, and every home improvement or sign of a nice neighbourhood, is slowly being photographed, catalogued and taxed by Gordon Brown's tax inspectors.

"Families face soaring bills for the crime of living in a nice neighbourhood. Only Labour would think of taxing people for looking out of their own windows."

Matthew Elliott, of the TaxPayers' Alliance, said: "Ministers are implementing revaluation by stealth, hoping that the public will blame local councils for rises in council tax."

Ministers have strenuously denied they are planning a revaluation of council tax bands, but the existence of a database to indicate that they have not ruled out a shake-up.

If a revaluation were to go ahead, officials have plans to evaluate council tax rates on the basis of a series of property attributes.

These include the number of parking spaces, number of bathrooms, number of bedrooms, whether the house is detached, and "value significant features" such as the beauty of the view, access to local transport and local shops.


Daily-Mail
Independent

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 09:21 
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Yokel wrote:
If my employers want to get me "out of my car and on to public transport" that's fine by me.

However, the fact that I will then only be able to work for them between 11.30 am and 2.30 pm each Wednesday might be a bit of a drawback.


I once worked out that I could be in by midday if I started as early as poss, and would get home at 22:30 if I left on time. Eleven hours a day commuting instead of two.


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:13 
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jomukuk wrote:
Quote:
Homeowners who have parking spaces on the road outside their home face higher council tax bills - even if they don't have a car.

Ministers have admitted that the availability of parking outside people's properties will be considered by inspectors assessing how much council tax households should pay. The "parking tax"- which will come on top of the cost of residents' parking permits - has been condemned as unfair by the Tories.

The Independent on Sunday has learnt that, in addition to the size of a property and its location, the availability of on-road parking, is being considered as a contributor to its value. Propertieson wide roads could pay hundreds of pounds more than similar-sized homes nearby.

"There seems to be no lengths to which the Government will go to tax another attribute of your home," said the MP Caroline Spelman.Ministers have already admitted that a fish pond, animal hutch or an "attractive flower arrangement" could count in home valuations.



Quote:
More than eight million homes are facing council tax increases because they enjoy nice views or for having off-street parking, claim the Tories.

Ministers have admitted they are building a database covering all 23million homes in England, and Conservatives say this means that residents of good neighbourhoods could be hit by huge council tax hikes.

Bills for next year are dropping on doormats up and down the country, with the Government expected to announce this week that in many areas the increases will exceed 5 per cent. The Conservatives revealed yesterseemsday that eight million homes have been logged on a "Big Brother" state database for having one or more offstreet parking places.

Details of the exact number of places - from one to "nine or more" - are kept on file.

A further 80,000 homes have been recorded for having a scenic view which impacts upon its value.

The database is broken down according to whether the house has views of the sea, hills, mountains, lakes, fields or golf courses.

Different codes are provided for "partial view" and "full view".

Conservative local government spokesman Eric Pickles said: "This is new evidence of the Labour Government's great council tax cover-up.

"Ministers' claims that the council tax revaluation in England was postponed have now been completely shredded.

"Every home in the country is being sized up, and every home improvement or sign of a nice neighbourhood, is slowly being photographed, catalogued and taxed by Gordon Brown's tax inspectors.

"Families face soaring bills for the crime of living in a nice neighbourhood. Only Labour would think of taxing people for looking out of their own windows."

Matthew Elliott, of the TaxPayers' Alliance, said: "Ministers are implementing revaluation by stealth, hoping that the public will blame local councils for rises in council tax."

Ministers have strenuously denied they are planning a revaluation of council tax bands, but the existence of a database to indicate that they have not ruled out a shake-up.

If a revaluation were to go ahead, officials have plans to evaluate council tax rates on the basis of a series of property attributes.

These include the number of parking spaces, number of bathrooms, number of bedrooms, whether the house is detached, and "value significant features" such as the beauty of the view, access to local transport and local shops.


Daily-Mail
Independent



People forget that this is how rates were always calculated in the past.

The "Rateable value" was notionally the value of the property as rental income. You paid a proportion of this (the rates set by the council were "Pence in the pound" of the rateable valuue) every property was individually valued and such things as the number of washbasens were indeed counted (my parents removed a supurfluous washbasen when they bought the house back in the sixties for precisly this reason)

In earlier times there was the "window tax" which resulted in owners of larger properties bricking up some of their windows. something that can still be seen in older properties)


Personally I think that of all the local tax schemes (all of which have their own particular range of flaws) the "poll tax" was probabarly the fairest.

Bring back the Poll Tax (it was IIRC actually called the "Community charge")

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:22 
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Yes, it's probably unpopular to say it but the "Poll Tax" is probably the most just system for local taxation as people use local services - not property. Everyone should pay something towards local services as they then feel involved and the mentality of "something for nothing" does not take root. I don't have a problem with subsidies for low income groups within this scheme.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:42 
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malcolmw wrote:
Yes, it's probably unpopular to say it but the "Poll Tax" is probably the most just system for local taxation as people use local services - not property. Everyone should pay something towards local services as they then feel involved and the mentality of "something for nothing" does not take root. I don't have a problem with subsidies for low income groups within this scheme.


Crikey, I thought I was one of the few who thought this too :shock:
I had no real problem with the community charge per-se, although I would have modified slightly. Even though as you rightly say it is people who use services, certain services are property focussed; one house gets one rubbish collection per week* regardless of the number of occupants, and two occupants don't necessarily produce twice as much refuse as one. But a two bed terraced house get the same refuse service as a 5 bed detached, so poperty value or 'niceness' shouldn't enter into it.

* Or whatever the cycle is in your area, the fine details are unimportant.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 17:36 
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A better tax would be a local tax based on income, per person.
Not property based at all.
The polltax was a reasonable idea, but since those with low incomes paid the same as those with high incomes it was never going to be a starter.
Also, those who had nothing to pay with....low-low incomes, still had to pay at least 20% of the rate.
Plus, those over 18 had to pay the same rate as those over 40 with high incomes....hardly socially just....
Anyway, it has gone. I cannot see it reappearing anytime soon.
Of course, those who pay the highest rate of property tax want it, or something like it, back.

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 18:36 
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jomukuk wrote:
A better tax would be a local tax based on income, per person.

Or better still a national tax on income which could then be distributed by a formula to local councils to provide services ...

Oh!

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 19:28 
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malcolmw wrote:
jomukuk wrote:
A better tax would be a local tax based on income, per person.

Or better still a national tax on income which could then be distributed by a formula to local councils to provide services ...

Oh!


That would basicly result in the end of any form of local democracy. Local democracy relies on local authorities having their own tax raising and budget setting powers. Otherwise there is really nothing to vote for at election time!

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Local income tax Vs "Poll tax"


Local government is not about redistribution of wealth, it is about emptying bins and fixing potholes (and some other things)

Poor people dont pay less for their beer, ciggies, petrol or to have ther electrics fixed or tap washers replaced. Why (in principle) should they pay less to have their bins emptied?? :bunker:

A flat level local poll tax combined with a review of what local authorities responsibilities should actually be would be just fine (Diversity officer! Oh come on!!)

Any support to relieve the presure on poorer people whether they be pensioners, disabled, unemployed or just low earners should be arranged through the nationally funded benefit/tax credit/tax system.

Simpler and fairer all round!

The only reason why the "Poll Tax" foundererd is that the sort of people who liked it are not the sort of people who would be inclined to riot, if they had been they would have outnumbererd the protesters 10 or even 20 to 1!

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 19:37 
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Dusty wrote:
Poor people dont pay less for their beer, ciggies, petrol or to have ther electrics fixed or tap washers replaced. Why (in principle) should they pay less to have their bins emptied??


Well, people don't have to buy beer, ciggies or petrol, but the do have to pay tax.
If it is mandated by acts of government that people will pay tax, then the tax should be levied at a rate that is proportional to their ability to pay it.
A local income tax would address the anomoly of using the status of someones home as a proxy for their ability to pay. Due to changes in income and othe reasons, people do find themsleves living in a property they couldn't afford to re-purchase at the current market value, this being the metric for banding the property for council tax purposes.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 21:17 
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Rigpig wrote:
Dusty wrote:
Poor people dont pay less for their beer, ciggies, petrol or to have ther electrics fixed or tap washers replaced. Why (in principle) should they pay less to have their bins emptied??


Well, people don't have to buy beer, ciggies or petrol, but the do have to pay tax.
If it is mandated by acts of government that people will pay tax, then the tax should be levied at a rate that is proportional to their ability to pay it.
A local income tax would address the anomoly of using the status of someones home as a proxy for their ability to pay. Due to changes in income and othe reasons, people do find themsleves living in a property they couldn't afford to re-purchase at the current market value, this being the metric for banding the property for council tax purposes.


Sorry, perhaps I was trying to make too many points all at the same time.

1) There are "taxes" that are the "same" for all people, regardless of income (eg exise dutys)

2) There are also "services" that cost the "same" for all people, regardless of income. (Getting an electrician to fix your wiring, plumber same for tap washers, etc, etc etc,)

Local authorities are (supposedly) responsible for providing certian local services. Most of these services are essentialy income/property-value independent. there is no fundimental reason why the "Charge" mechinisim should not be simply tied to individual people.

Any corrections for low income individuals (for whatever reason) should be made at a national level rather than a local one.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 03:16 
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Er!.................Just a minute! It was always said (until this announcement) that you had no rights over the parking space outside your home! It was "Public Highway" and "that's that!"

So how can they tax you for it?......and if someone else parks there can you charge 'em a parking fee in order to "re-emburse" you?
Boy the Courts are going to be full!

I presume then, that this is about "residents parking only" areas.............

If it is, then you should have a choice as to whether to claim it as yours or not....

Therefore: A small informal rotational agreement with your neighbours, should solve the problem..... :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 07:51 
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Frankly, the idea of giving the local half-wits (councils) the ability to demand earnings details for the purpose of taxation calculation leaves me less than happy.
I'm not happy talking to them about anything !
I consider that having two stages of income taxation is a recipe for excess taxation (more so than at present).
In any case, the giving of powers to local councils should be resisted, mainly because they are so "information leaky"

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:57 
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[quote="malcolmwOr better still a national tax on income which could then be distributed by a formula to local councils to provide services ...

Oh![/quote]

Or by certain services (eg police etc) being paid for nationally ,rather than the LA getting a grant and charing the difference .Witness the farce in Warks this year -Police bit up circa 12% ----Gov't says no -so we will (in time ) be getting new bills -paid for by ---you've guessed it ,joe public
.And then later on we'll see the police cutting services --again who suffers -

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 11:49 
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I hated the poll tax because it was significantly higher than the rates, then when the council tax came in surprise, surprise it was even higher than the poll tax had been.

I quite like the idea of having a council tax with a base amount for services rendered to any property, e.g. waste collection, and the number of occupants, e.g. the amount of waste collected. The occupant charges would have to include children, a large proportion of the council tax is for education so parents should should pay a larger contribution towards this.

In the end however I would have to look at the cost benefit to the administration of a complex but 'fair' scheme compared with a simple but arguably unfair scheme. What is the point of feeling you are only paying for services you use if the biggest thing you are paying for is the administration of the tax.

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