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 Post subject: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 18:59 
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Which speed limit? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 19:09 
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If I saw something like that I'd just assume that some idiot had turned one of the signs around.

Anyway, until the error is rectified, it's not a case of anyone on any side being limited to anything: AIUI there's no legally valid speed limit on the road whatsoever! I'm surprised there isn't unmitigated carnage already (since I've heard that to stop accidents, you need a legally valid speed limit and preferably a magic accident-reducing machine as well).... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 19:18 
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Here's another similar one in Stockport:

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Plenty more oddities where that came from :lol:

(says he shamelessly plugging his own website)

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 19:46 
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Dixie wrote:
Which speed limit? :shock:

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the lady in yellow looks guilty

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 19:51 
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Why ever are the signs cranked in over the pavements?

Is it possible to have a 20mph ZONE but the legally enforceable limit is 30mph?

What idiot installed these?

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 20:02 
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The signs also look to be quite high up from the ground and may easily be missed, or is that the intention?

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 22:53 
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Dixie wrote:
The signs also look to be quite high up from the ground and may easily be missed, or is that the intention?


Oh give over with the bloody conspiracy theories!


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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 22:59 
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malcolmw wrote:
Why ever are the signs cranked in over the pavements?

Is it possible to have a 20mph ZONE but the legally enforceable limit is 30mph?

What idiot installed these?


I think thats it Malcolm, i.e. a 30 mph enforcebale limit but a requested/advised/wanted speed zone of 20mph.

Just how much confusion do they want to cause.


On the A41 south of Chester there is, in teh following order.

A speed camera in a 60mph NSL zone

A 50 mph 'max speed' sign about 30 yards behind it - the upcoming DC has a modest LH bend

A dual carriageway starts about 50 yards beyond that.

How many conflicting signals in one short space of road is enough?

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 01:26 
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I'm not sure if the default 30mph speed limit due to street lamps would be enforceable or not. I think (but am not sure, I saw it recently but didn't remember enough) that such a default limit is not enforceable where there is another speed limit order on the road.

Neither signed limit/zone is enforceable because the signs are wrong, obviously.

(In fact the sign on the left, until recently, was not listed as a "start of restriction" sign :lol:)

Are bent poles allowed?

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 07:57 
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Quote:
20mph zones

There is a legal distinction between a 20mph speed limit and a 20mph zone, as far as signing requirements are concerned. A 20mph speed limit is signed in exactly the same way as any other, i.e. there must be a pair of signs at the point where the speed limit starts, one each side of the road (except in some circumstances within 20 metres of a junction, where only one sign is required — see above), and repeater signs must be provided at intervals.

A 20mph zone, however, must have zone entry signs at each point where drivers can enter the zone. These signs must be in accordance with diagram 674 of TSRGD, instead of the normal sign denoting a maximum speed limit, diagram 670. Zone exit signs, in accordance with diagram 675, should be placed at every exit point, for the benefit of drivers leaving the zone.


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The remainder of paragraph (4) lists circumstances in which a sign on one side of the road only is required, but these do not apply at the beginning of a speed limit, as the wording of the paragraph makes clear. Direction 8 plainly states, therefore, that there must be a sign on both sides of the road (or both sides of the carriageway, if the road is a dual carriageway) at the point where a speed limit starts.

Unfortunately, there are exceptions to this rule, which are set out in direction 9 of TSRGD. The wording of direction 9 is quite complicated, so its paragraphs are reproduced below, followed by an explanation of what they mean:
(1) Direction 8(3) does not apply where a speed limit in force on the relevant road begins:—
(a) at a point where the relevant road begins, being a point where it has no junction with another road; or
(b) at a point where the relevant road has a junction with another road and the same speed limit is in force on both roads.
The first part of this paragraph simply means that there is no need for a sign to indicate the start of a speed limit at the blind end of a cul-de-sac. The second part means that, where roads intersect and have the same speed limit, there is no need for signs to indicate the start of a speed limit, since there is no change in the limit.
(2) This paragraph applies where the relevant road has a junction ("the junction") with the side of another road ("the other road") and a maximum speed limit is in force on the other road which is different from the speed limit in force on the relevant road.
(3) Where paragraph (2) applies, it is sufficient compliance with direction 8(2), for the purpose of indicating the beginning of the speed limit on the relevant road to traffic entering it from the other road, if the sign shown in diagram 670, 674 or 675 is placed not further than 20 metres from the junction, on the left hand or near side of the carriageway of the relevant road as viewed in the direction of travel of such traffic or, where the relevant road is a dual carriageway road, on the left hand or near side of the carriageway by which traffic may pass into the relevant road from the other road.
Paragraphs (2) and (3) apply where one road has a junction with another and the two roads have different speed limits. Where traffic is turning from a major road with, for example, a 40mph speed limit, into a side turning with, say, a 30mph limit, there only needs to be a single sign at the entrance to the side road to show the start of the 30mph limit. This sign must, however, be on the left-hand side of the road as seen by drivers entering the side road, and it must be no more than 20 metres from the junction with the major road that the driver has left.
(4) Where paragraph (2) applies, for the purpose of indicating the speed limit in force on the other road to traffic entering that road from the relevant road, the sign shown in diagram 670, 674 or 675 shall (subject to paragraph (5)) be placed not further than 20 metres from the junction and so as to be visible to such traffic, on each side of the carriageway by which traffic may pass from the relevant road into the other road.
(5) Paragraph (4) does not apply if:—
(a) the maximum speed limit in force on the other road is greater than that in force on the relevant road; and
(b) signs indicating the maximum speed limit have been placed on the other road in accordance with direction 11 on each side of, and not more than 100 metres from, the junction.
Paragraphs (2), (4) and (5) also relate to the situation where one road joins another and the two roads have different speed limits, but they deal with the signs needed to advise drivers travelling in the opposite direction, i.e. from the side road into the major road. The requirement (paragraph (4)) is for a sign to be placed on both sides of the side road on the approach to the major road, but not more than 20 metres from the junction, to show the speed limit on the major road. This only applies, however, if the speed limit on the major road is lower than that on the side road. If the speed limit on the major road is higher than that on the side road (paragraph (5)), no signs are required at all on the approach to the junction, provided there is a speed limit repeater sign on the major road not more than 100 metres from the junction, and in both directions of travel.

Presumably the thinking behind this exception is that drivers entering the major road will assume that the speed limit has not changed, until they see a speed limit repeater sign. If the major road is of a much better standard than the side road, however, drivers are likely to expect that a significantly higher speed limit applies and could accelerate to above the actual limit before they see the first repeater sign. The real purpose, of course, is to save the highway authority money in the provision of signs.



http://www.abd.org.uk/index.htm

Signing Requirements for Speed Limits

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 08:34 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
Dixie wrote:
The signs also look to be quite high up from the ground and may easily be missed, or is that the intention?


Oh give over with the bloody conspiracy theories!


Is there a legal high that these signs should be placed at?

As far as conspiracy theories go. With the amount of effort these SPC’s put into trapping the motorist, it wouldn’t surprise me if that was the reason for placing them at such a great height and the dogleg in the pole.

Why not the standard post and sign?

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 09:46 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
Dixie wrote:
The signs also look to be quite high up from the ground and may easily be missed, or is that the intention?


Oh give over with the bloody conspiracy theories!

Yes, it's ridiculous isn't it? It's not like the SCPs have shown beyond reasonable doubt that they're utterly dishonest, shrouded in secrecy and much more interested in maximising ticket volumes than they are in "stopping speeding".

Something tells me that you don't have any such problem with the (actual) conspiracy theories levelled at Safe Speed, despite having been in the Clubhouse and knowing perfectly well that we really do just want safer roads.

Feel free to demonstrate at any time why you think that the SCPs really are just interested in "slowing people down", despite the fact that a lack of tickets and heavy job losses would inevitably follow, and despite the fact that they're so hellbent on convicting people who they know weren't actually speeding.

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:53 
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bombus wrote:
Feel free to demonstrate at any time why you think that the SCPs really are just interested in "slowing people down", despite the fact that a lack of tickets and heavy job losses would inevitably follow, and despite the fact that they're so hellbent on convicting people who they know weren't actually speeding.


Have you got a source/evidence for the last assertion? Or is it just something you assume after reading about a handful of cases in the Daily Mail?

I've noticed more and more that Cheshire are sending out Police cars and occupants equipped with LTI 20/20's rather than the traditional civilian van (in a hark back to the days of the officer leaping out of the bush with the hairdryer!) - I've noticed also that these Police cars actually pull over the drivers and presumably ticket them and/or give then the acid lecture. I'd say from my (limited) experience in seeing these cars, that they are pretty interested in slowing people down. Also, I've noticed a massive increase in the number of general Police cars (both marked and unmarked) knocking about - maybe it's different in your area, but certainly up here it's improved.

In summary, I think they are very transparent. The council publish the camera locations and enforcement routes. They have enormous blue signs saying "Police enforcement area" on major roads like the A57, the roads are being improved, repainted, and dangerous gaps, etc, closed. I would say that they are doing a good job and are quite the opposite from simply wanting revenue (which is miniscule anyway and no longer pays for the SCP as far as I am aware). Was it Clarkson who said that they get more in income tax from Cowell than they do in speeding fines per annum?


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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:41 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
bombus wrote:
Feel free to demonstrate at any time why you think that the SCPs really are just interested in "slowing people down", despite the fact that a lack of tickets and heavy job losses would inevitably follow, and despite the fact that they're so hellbent on convicting people who they know weren't actually speeding.


Have you got a source/evidence for the last assertion? Or is it just something you assume after reading about a handful of cases in the Daily Mail?

I've noticed more and more that Cheshire are sending out Police cars and occupants equipped with LTI 20/20's rather than the traditional civilian van (in a hark back to the days of the officer leaping out of the bush with the hairdryer!) - I've noticed also that these Police cars actually pull over the drivers and presumably ticket them and/or give then the acid lecture. I'd say from my (limited) experience in seeing these cars, that they are pretty interested in slowing people down. Also, I've noticed a massive increase in the number of general Police cars (both marked and unmarked) knocking about - maybe it's different in your area, but certainly up here it's improved.

In summary, I think they are very transparent. The council publish the camera locations and enforcement routes. They have enormous blue signs saying "Police enforcement area" on major roads like the A57, the roads are being improved, repainted, and dangerous gaps, etc, closed. I would say that they are doing a good job and are quite the opposite from simply wanting revenue (which is miniscule anyway and no longer pays for the SCP as far as I am aware). Was it Clarkson who said that they get more in income tax from Cowell than they do in speeding fines per annum?


As said in the other thread as I had not seen this one first :oops:

Both twin lollies have to show the same speed limit - else Nick Freeman will make mincemeat of the case :wink: It's a matter of signage and clarity to the road user :popcorn:

I have been on to Andreas (Swiss beagle bod) about this and he says the letter of the law is quite specific... if the lollies do not match .. or even if one of the "twins lollies" at the start of a new speed limit zone has been removed - then a case against speeding can be won and it seems that there is plenty of case law to support this - which these legal eagly beagly types will use to advantage .. :wink: . :popcorn:

Oh and by the way.. all fines go to Treasury and a percentage is handed back to the SCPS. Thus they are still getting their income from scamming just the same as they always did :roll:

As for Cowell.. grossly overpaid for imposing untalented trash on my eardrums :banghead:

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:51 
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By the way - the road already has speed humps.. :scratchchin:

That pink strip near the approaching car .. with the little arrows .. that looks like an 'ump to me... :scratchchin:

Hmmm.. the humps don't work then ':popcorn:
By the way - these signs are higher than the normal lollies .. another loophole for the "beagly bods" if "not type approved" :popcorn:

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:03 
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Firstly, could you please say definitively whether you are jec or mpaton2004? If you're mpaton2004, did you come up with the "Santini Air" stuff? And if you're jec, what's wrong with using your own account? (If you don't answer (again) then I'll have to assume that you're jec, because otherwise why would you avoid the question?)

mpaton2004 wrote:
bombus wrote:
Feel free to demonstrate at any time why you think that the SCPs really are just interested in "slowing people down", despite the fact that a lack of tickets and heavy job losses would inevitably follow, and despite the fact that they're so hellbent on convicting people who they know weren't actually speeding.


Have you got a source/evidence for the last assertion? Or is it just something you assume after reading about a handful of cases in the Daily Mail?

Our very own Ernest Marsh for one, and I trust him (although no doubt you will assume that he was actually speeding without investigating, since you're a starry-eyed fan of SCPs and they like to pretend that anyone who's in court for speeding must be guilty). There are countless other examples as well which are by no means restricted to the Daily Mail (which I don't even read, but that doesn't mean that I would automatically dismiss articles of theirs just because they showed my assertions to be wrong). Where have you been? Or do you just see what you want to?

mpaton2004 wrote:
In summary, I think they are very transparent.

:rotfl:

That's utterly, utterly absurd. They try to convict people who weren't speeding. They hide and disguise their vans. They enforce limits which they know aren't legal. When they are found (legally) to have wrongly convicted people then they don't apologise and they don't give their money back unless they ask for it. They constantly commit statistical fraud to make it look like their cameras are working when they're not (e.g. RTTM fraud, pretending that serious injuries have fallen when they know it's just a reporting change, etc). They fight tooth and nail to ensure that no-one finds out just how much money their "best" cameras are making. They lie in court and present dodgy evidence. And much, much, much more besides.

There's not much point in me continuing with the list (even though I could), because the ways in which the SCPs are far from "transparent" are well documented on this forum (and others), and if you still think they're "transparent" by now then no amount of reasoning will change that. If you genuinely think by now that SCPs are transparent and not motivated by generating as many tickets as possible (as opposed to pretending to think it because it suits you), I'm sorry but there's no hope for you (whoever "you" is), or for anyone who's trying to make you see sense. You've truly "got religion" in the worst possible way, and it scares me that someone can be so comprehensively brainwashed by the authorities and their self-serving lies. I give up trying to get anywhere with you.

(For the record, although SCPs no longer get to keep the cash that they raise, the government still expects them to raise money for them, and if an SCP was losing money then job cuts would inevitably follow. The government is still clinging to this infantile idea that it's in some way reasonable to expect "road safety for free", despite the fact that it's neither road safety nor free, because camera victims are paying for it. SCPs are well aware that they are expected to be "cost effective", and they try every trick in the book to generate as many tickets as possible. They hide their vans, they go on the busiest roads, they go on the roads with the stupidest speed limits, they enforce right at the edge of speed limit zones which are extended far beyond where they need to be, they turn off SIDs when they're in the area, and all the rest. Now that they don't have to list the times and places that their camera vans are going to be at any more, then guess what? They don't. SCPs are still trying to issue as many tickets as they possibly can, they absolutely don't want people to "slow down", and the evidence is overwhelming.)

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 Post subject: Re: Which speed limit
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:09 
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Quote:
The remainder of paragraph (4) lists circumstances in which a sign on one side of the road only is required, but these do not apply at the beginning of a speed limit, as the wording of the paragraph makes clear. Direction 8 plainly states, therefore, that there must be a sign on both sides of the road (or both sides of the carriageway, if the road is a dual carriageway) at the point where a speed limit starts.

Unfortunately, there are exceptions to this rule, which are set out in direction 9 of TSRGD. The wording of direction 9 is quite complicated, so its paragraphs are reproduced below, followed by an explanation of what they mean:
(1) Direction 8(3) does not apply where a speed limit in force on the relevant road begins:—
(a) at a point where the relevant road begins, being a point where it has no junction with another road; or
(b) at a point where the relevant road has a junction with another road and the same speed limit is in force on both roads.
The first part of this paragraph simply means that there is no need for a sign to indicate the start of a speed limit at the blind end of a cul-de-sac. **The second part means that, where roads intersect and have the same speed limit, there is no need for signs to indicate the start of a speed limit, since there is no change in the limit.**
(2) This paragraph applies where the relevant road has a junction ("the junction") with the side of another road ("the other road") and a maximum speed limit is in force on the other road which is different from the speed limit in force on the relevant road.


The first pic is of a road junction. Since there are no signs changing the limit at the junction for traffic coming towards the camera.....

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