Safe Speed Forums

I have managed to get embroiled in a debate on NIPs on the Mondeo Enthusiasts Group here (warning - it's a big thread and I don't come in until about page 6 or 7.)

Their resident 'cop' - a contributor by the name of fungus, sadly gives his stated profession a bad name. He also resorted to dismissing the advice of one of our resident 'good guy' BiBs - In Gear - without so much as checking IG's credentials.

You may also want to read his pompous, one sided Speeding 'Fact' File that is pinned in the forum, as well as some of his other posts.)

Anyone want to help me out with this crass individual as I am starting to lose my patience with him?

Yep, clearly this guy's a genius.

Ooops! I invited him over here and it looks like he paid a visit.

Shame he didn't stay long enough to register tho.

By his tone he reminds me awfully of that Mr Plod who used to post frequently in the anonymous forum.

I PM'd him an offer of a truce and he replied saying he was refusing to read it.

The thought of logging my personal details, and associating myself as a Mondeo owner, was too much

Hopefully, he will come over & enter into some constructive debate

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Steve

Access denied.

What a shame, I really wanted to enthuse about the Mondeo.

It wasn't 'access denied' yesterday, but they might just be running a backup or something at this time on a Sunday morning.

Or maybe the thread has been deleted or something?

What's the story?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I went in and looked for the thread, it has been moved, I guess they have a members only section

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Former Military Police Officer and accident investigator

I had a look-see - they locked the thread! It's still viewable.

He is probably playing a pee-cee card on scammers from what I gather. Takes all sorts.

\Speed cams are not an answer to bad driving and car crashes - our answers lie in promoting good driving practices and trying to encourage this. As said elsewhere - Forces like Durham and N. Yorks see road policing as pro-active in encouraging good driver attitudes as opposed to being overly reactive against minor speeding blips.

In any case - we can easily nick someone for 75 mph in a 70 mph zone and whilst we're dealing with him - about half a dozen speeders have whizzed by at much naughtier speeds. Hence - we'll go for the more "dangerous" for words, warnings and fines if they have a seriously bad attitude - and leave the safe marginal alone most of the time. It's called acting with professional discretion and prioritising correctly.

We should be more concerned with the bigger picture in any case: most accidents are down to road user error.

Lots of factors affect us - and normal law abiding drivers can be affected through wrong kind of footwear, (slippery soles and high heels, flip flops) prescription medicines, understimating their own tiredness, stress (various causes) and bereavement can seriously affect your driving. It's a case of recognising when we are below par and acting responsibly.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Hi. I am said Fungus.

Okay, I am not here to start an argument, far from it. However I would like to clear up some claims made by rc11o.

I'll tell you a bit about myself firstly. I have been policing for eight years now. All that time in the Kent force. I am class three and pursuit (TPAC) trained (still waiting for the elusive class 1 course). Member of IAM. I have done a full traffic patrol course. PG9 authorised. I also did two years as a traffic family liaison officer. I was until a year ago a division area car driver, hence why I am still waiting for my class 1. Minions on division don’t get advanced courses in Kent, well they didn't until I changed roles but that’s another story .

I was also a trainer in the Unipar Speed Ace laser device. A small hand held unit made in Kent. I was actively involved in speed enforcement in my division. We mainly targeted areas where speed was either an issue for the local community or where there was a proven accident problem. It was high visibility, no sneaky beaky policing. The majority of motorists were given a telling off. Only those that deserved a ticket or summons got one. An ethos which we found very effective.

When the current proliferation of speed cameras and partnerships started to take over I hung up my speed guns and took no further active role in speed enforcement. Largely because I did not want to be associated with the growing wave of resentment towards the police.

In my time as an area car driver I attended hundreds of accidents and far too many fatals. While I agree that bad driving causes accidents it is fair to say that one of the symptoms of bad driving is excessive speed. I can hand on heart say I have been to many fatalities where excessive speed has been a major factor in a fatality or fatalities. That said, in some of those cases the vehicles involved were in fact within the posted limit, they were going to fast for the conditions. Something a speed camera does not account for.

I'll make one thing clear, if I haven't all ready. I do not agree with the way speed limits are currently enforced. I agree with many, all though not all, of the sentiments of this site. So it I am not about to get embroiled in another debate about the rights and wrongs of speed cameras and the associated partnerships.

My personal view is that the current trend of downsizing traffic units should be reversed. Every camera site should be independently reviewed. Those that can not be proved beyond all doubt to contribute to road safety should be removed. Also the locations that the vans sit at should also be reviewed and justified. I would like to see Truvelo cameras removed as they allow the group most at risk of speed related deaths, motorcyclists, to do what ever speed they like with impunity. Where you have a stretch of road where people feel the need to drive or ride at dangerous speeds the posted limit should be reduced and SPECS cameras should be utilised to enforce the new limit. We all know of roads which are fun to drive on, which is all well and good if you can drive and know your own limits. Sadly if either of those factors kicks in on bend then we all know what happens. In addition 'dangerous roads' (there is no such thing as a dangerous road only dangerous drivers') should be re-engineered to make them safer for the numpties out there.

I whole heartedly agree with In-gears views that education is the way forward. However this needs to be backed up with proper enforcement. Sadly a fair number of people won't listen to the message and will continue to kill or be killed. As evidenced by drink drive campaigns.

Back to the reason this thread started. I have been on the Mondeo forum for a couple of years now. Most people on there will agree that the advice I give in impartial and fair. The post in question was started by a member who by his own admission was traveling well over the limit (67 in a 40 I think). Certainly at a speed where I would have given a ticket. He didn't want to get off the ticket, he just wanted advice on the NIP and 172 procedure which I gave him. This was then countered by some very suspect advice about not signing the 172 and doing little else. That is certainly the way it came across, and by the posters own admission was poorly worded. I take the view that bad advice is dangerous advice, especially when you are playing with someone else’s licence. Also given the speed he was traveling he is going to court any way, it was not a conditional offer. A situation where I would advise being very careful and to seek proper legal advice if you are contesting the summons. Which is where the thread started to go down hill.

I am of the view, whatever the rights and wrongs of speed enforcement, if you get caught fair and square then take your punishment. Fair enough if you wish to contest it because of incorrectly posted limits or some other factor which made the offence void. But if the only way you can get off is by trying to exploit some loophole in the system then I see it as trying to worm out of it. To me that is saying, 'hey I broke the law I don’t give a toss because I can use this loophole'. It is personal view to which I am entitled to without being trolled by r11co and others. The fact remains speeding is illegal. It is not, incidentally, a criminal offence. You don't get a criminal record and it is not recordable. Yes it my come under the umbrella of criminal law but that does not make it a criminal offence.

One of r11co's claims was that I dismissed In-gears advice on cornering. I stand by the view that a little information is dangerous. Having been through various driving courses I know how hard it can be to truly master the art of cornering. Identifying the limit point and reading the bend properly are not skills that can be taught on the internet. I never questioned in-gears credentials. My advice to anyone wishing to improve their driving skills is to take an AIM course.

As for my pompous speeding fact file. It was written to be totally un-biased. There were a lot of questions being constantly raised about the whole subject. I wrote it with a view to it being totally down the middle. Not taking either side. In the links section I linked to various anti speed camera sites as well as to other sites involved in the whole debate. Some of what was posted in there was cut and pasted from various government related sites. Maybe on reflection that wasn't a great idea.

Sadly r11co descended what was a lively debate in to an exchange of insults. He also under estimated that posting, as he did here would go un-noticed. That kind of post does nothing to further your cause. My in-box was quickly filled with messages of support from people who hither too had no real view on the debate.

As for the olive branch, r11co sought to continue the debate via PM's as I had lost any respect for him as a result of the post on here I asked him not to PM me any further.

Anyway theres my cards on the table. Hopefully you will see that all is not as was made out by the originator of this post. And if you took the time to read that lot then well done and thank you.

As the same drivers use other stretches of road, that are not known accident problems, it clearly shows the problem is with the road layout & not the Motorist.

By simple changing poor road layouts, it saves Lives, and policing cost's



Considering you arrive on the scene, after the event, your assesment is therefore based on theory, is it not



Completly agree



We should set speed limits according to the layout of the roads, not based on increasing the number of tickets that can be produced.



You are completley wrong, why is it thousands of drivers can navigate certain junctions, with very few or no accidents.

Yet particular junctions, will have nothing nut accidents, the only differant element is the road layout. What do Council want to do, bring down the speed limit and stick in a camera. It would be far more effective if the layout was changed to a safe one.

The A14, is a classis example, it is almost M/Way layout, that allows traffic to cross over. Stupid planning, block off the cross overs, and remove the element that causes the accident.

What is the Government going to do, stick in Speed cameras




Some drivers, never get it, some drivers need training, some drivers take to it like ducks to water.

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Steve

Amen to all that!

Welcome.

I've given you the "Police" badge to which you are entitled.

I hope you'll find the level of discussion and experience visible in these forums to be of substantial benefit.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Hi Digital Fungus All the more reason to treat the cause rather than the symptom.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Driving is all about hazard perception. The skill is to recognise a hazard and then react to it appropriately. A hazard can be anything, from a child running out to a poorly laid out junction or even a speed camera. If a driver fails to recognise that hazard or reacts in the wrong way the chances of an accident occuring are greatly increased.

As you said there are different skill levels of driver, ranging from the vastly skilled down to the downright dangerous. As I said road need to be re engineered to make it safer for all drivers, in otherwords fool proof.



Well I always hope to arrive after. If I arrive at any other time it has all gone wrong. It does not take a genius to see if speed is a factor in an accident. Sometimes by the drivers own admission they were going to fast, or the 50 meters of skid mark give it away. I have also been in the position to read detailed collision investigation reports which will give a speed range and are scientifically accurate. In fact if they can not prove a speed with the evidence provided they will not provide one, even though it was obvious to everyone that speed was a factor. Speed is very rarely the sole cause of an accident, but it can be an aggravating factor.




I am not saying that every road should have a SPECS system, just those where excessive speed is, without doubt, a main cause of accidents, roads such as the one featured in traffic cops recently where all the born again bikers go to race. They should be well sign posted and people should be under no illusion what kind of camera is being used. The priority should be with out a doubt casualty reduction no ore and no less. I would rather see money raised from enforcement put towards families of road death victims. If the government is serious about making the roads safer then that kind of transparent gesture would remove all arguments about revenue raising.


I still beleive there is a place for speed cameras. In the right place and for the right reasons. But certainly not to the level they are now.

Hi there Digital Fungus and welcome.

I think most on sites like MEG, PH and here welcome a BiB input and it helps undo some of the damage created by speed cams by being able to contribute - hopefully - positively, being understanding and trying to help improve standards as well.

I hope you decide to stay and contribute as we need input from BiBs around the UK on here.

Most here are genuinely interested in road safety and police views, cyclist views, pedestrian views should all be welcome if we are to further a culture of road sense and safety.



Our concerns are a depletion of the role of "traffic." I'm lucky in that I'm from a BiB family, joined when Hendon was at its most elitist

I also belong to a family which suffered more than its fair share of trauma - and even though they were freak non fault occurrences - I think I am stronger professionally and personally because of them.

I hear Lancs has fewer traffic police since it went down the Partnership road. There are some praiseworthy initiatives there - in that their DIS and Speed Aware course are very good indeed. But they are losing this shine by decreasing traffic police.



This is indeed the difference between a BiB and a speed camera. My area is not "soft" on traffic offences. Quite the opposite. However, we have an ethic of fair and square and hold the view that education and tips will achieve longer term effective results than just issuing a fixed penalty or a sumons. We train our guys to use judgement but reatin a professional opinion at all times. Ultimately, this helps keep our deaths down.



You know - even up here in Durham -the abuse and resentment is felt - and we are a traditional force with traditional ethics and values.

I don't agree with s/cams: there is a bigger picture to address - and there are no easy solutions as we have already discussed on this excellent forum - of which all (apart from the odd strange bloke who turns up on the Nonny forum) are intelligent, informed and full of decent and practiical ideas to improve road safety.

I have a high regard for all - even basingmate who can be a bit tiresome on occasion.



Each incident has a unique flavour to it. I've been involved in traffic now for 26 years - and senior ranked. Some are within limit and some in excess - well in excess in some cases.

I'm not going to deny impact speed affects outcome - but we do find some other prime cause was a catalyst in most incidents.



Sadly despite our best efforts ... some slip through the net. Mate - we can only try our best. We ain't superhuman after all. But if we chip away - as a constant and use our tools effectively and be seen to do it fairly and professionally - we may just make that significant in-road.


But we have a lot of work to do to earn that respect. My lads are told that we cannot afford one slip, and that to remain calm and polite at all times will command that respect.

It's difficult when you're out there and being gobbed on - but - heck - part of the job... Not reacting really seals your authority..



Rather think we'd have been talking summons in this instance. It's a difficult call as one tries to reassure as well as be realistic.

My static response - try "pepippo" and get a good lawyer to present a case, ensuring that all mitigating circumstances and potential hardships are presented to the court for consideration - as well as the old fashioned grovel.



We try to share tips and advice in the "Driver Improvement forum". I ask what people know for purpose of debate and then chip in with some advice from professional experience. It boils down to expereince butif we can make people aware of the limit point and tell them what to look for - we may have helped. We can all buy "Road Craft" as well - but driving is learned as a kineasthetic skill by doing . Thus if the collective can give some tips - it informs and can help others know what to look for, Who knows - we may even encourage people to consider IAM training as a result.



Some may ot looks at "Speed traps Bible " which explains the difference beteen the gadgets. Was valid to introduce to a wider audience.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Don't disagree with anything there In-Gear or should i day sir

It is funny how everyone always used to whinge and whine about traf pol now everyone wants a return to the good old days.

Here in Kent apparently we have more miles of motorway than any policing area (M25, M20, M2) yet have one of the smallest traffic units. We also have a very prolific speed camera partnership yet a higher than average death toll. Rather than giving the county a hard time about it the home office have apparently given us special dispensation due to the amount of traffic we have coming through the county.

They seem throw so much money into post accident care and investigation and very little in preventing them in the first place. A very backward approach.

Hmmn, I was in the car with my wife on the M25, heavy traffic speed was about 50 mph, appropriate speed for traffic flow. We were in lane 2, a car was travling in lane 3, and pretty much stayed level with the rear bumper.

Traffic came to a stop, my wife stopped, the car in lane 3 at our side, failed to see the change in flow, ended up in the car in front of him and the side of my wife.

He got and said "sorry, i was driving too fast"

My reply was "it was not your speed you F** A*s*le, you failed to see the traffic stopping", followed by "you need to F* wake up"



That is a real rare occasion nowadays with the mass introduction of ABS.




Our weather reports are scientifically accurate as well

I am sure you mean a scientific theory, this does mean it is in anyway accurate, far from it. More a point, it is the best conclusion they can arrive at, without all the facts, and it makes the report easy to conclude.



Now, you know that is not true, the statement will say "speed was a factor"



Speed cameras raise revenue, they do not reduce speeding drivers or do effect safety

Lets look at the speed camera, say i am driving at 60 mph, in a 30mph limit, i get caught by a speed camera, which lets me know about it within 14 days.

At that particular time that it was deemed, i was unsafe, and putting over drivers at risk, i was permitted to do so until the end of my journey or upto the point of actually causing an accident. At no time does a camera, stop a driver, and make them aware of their stupidity.

On this basis, maybe we should consider suing the council/Government, for lack of duty of care.

For example:

A driver is caught by a camera, for driving at risk to other drivers, yet is permitted to continue and cause an accident.

This could be deemed, as the Government are responsible, as they did not act, even though their equipment picked up the poor driving standard.

An interesting thought anyway

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Steve

One of the reasons I avoided joining here was to stay away from the endless argument that is speed cameras.

There are so many views on the subject some vaild some not.

As you have given one example of an accident where speed may not have been the cause of an accident I could give you a dozen more where it was. That does not get anyone any where.

Even ABS leaves some marking on the road. Detectable to the naked eye if you know what to look for.



Not the same thing by a long chalk. If you have ever seen a full accident report and have even the slightest idea of the mathmatics involved you would see what an exact science it is. Many of the investigators have degrees in physics and mathmatics. Their speed calculations can be accurate to with in plus or minus a couple miles an hour. And will easily stand up to cross examination in court.



Will you down the same road at the same speed after 15 days?

And surely if you are doing 60 in a 30 you fully deserve the summons and almost certain resultant ban no matter what the ethics of the camera debate? At that speed you cease to become an average member of the public minding their own business.

And you are missing my point slightly about the correct use of cameras.

I can given an example of a perfectly placed camera. There is a road in my old division which had an horrendous amount of accidents. It was a 30mph limit. But looked like it should be NSL. the road goes down into a dip and then around a sharpish bend. Just past the bend is a junction into a sports club and some houses. The problem was people trying to get out of the junction and pulling out infront of people that were going so fast they didn't have a chance of seeing them. Equally the other driver had no time to react. We used to do regular speed checks down there and were always catching people doing 60+. The lay out of the road did not allow for ATS to be fitted, this would have meant sationary traffic on the bend. So they installed a Truvello. This stopped crashes overnight. It was placed in away that you had pleanty of time to see it. All the locals know it is there and slow right down for the bend and junction. Well they slow down for the camera but the net result is the same.

However, that was one of a batch of 5 fitted at the same time. All of the the others were placed in locations that can only be described as criminal. One was placed using statistics from when there were major road works and the accident rate was high. Another was on a road which in all the years previously I had never been to an accident. Two were placed on a road where the issue was pedestrians not knowing how to cross the road and nothing to do with speed. and the last one was placed on a road where they were getting complaints from residents about speeding cars, again no real accident rate. Now of course they can say, 'look we have reduced casualties by X amount at these locations'.

Yet the two most dangerous roads in the area had nothing. Some flashing speed reminder signs and thats it.

Stick around mate, we're just getting warmed up . Just kidding. More BiBs round here the better, specially trafplod who sadly seem to be an endangered species in some parts. It's kind of nice to know some of you still exist. Over here in TVP area I can't remember the last time I saw a traffic car on local roads, and even pandas don't appear often. Got no shoartage of scameras though, and just heard on the local news this evening that TVP area dished out more FPNs than any other force last year. I'm with bmwk12 there - I've always said it's like a teacher giving a school kid a detention days later. I think there's a disassociation between the sin and the punishment, one that does not exist when you pull someone and give them the rollocking and ticket if necessary. Even if you gave a ticket every time I'd say you were achieving more than the scamera by the accompanying lecture.

The bit about the sensibly sited scamera was interesting. I don't know Kent so I've no idea where that might be, but it sounds like one I personally wouldn't object to. But let me play devil's advocate and ask if you think a smiley SID or better, one of those speed activated warning signs, wouldn't be just as good? Wouldn't that inform drivers of the hazard and the immediate need to alter their driving? Actually that sounds even better than the scamera to me. There's a few of these between Basingstoke and Alton, and believe me you'd know if you set one off. Actually at night you know when a car up the road sets it off .

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I have made this post before but it is relevant to make it again here.

I was booked by a cop many years ago on Christmas morning doing about 10kph over the limit in the left lane when going to spend time with the rellies. The cop pointed out that it was Christmas morning and lots of kids get new bikes!!!

The cop probably thought I was being a smartarse when I thanked him for the ticket and wished him a merry Christmas. I was being serious and I slowed down and became more attentive.

A camera would have told me I was speeding 2 weeks later and would have had zero affect on me. The cop had an immediate and beneficial effect there and then.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

No. In this case I dont think they would work. The road is mainly used by locals who knew full well there were a high number of accidents and that we did regular speed checks but chose to take the chance anyway. The camera is located smack opposite the junction. Cars have no choice but to slow down.