Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Wed Nov 13, 2019 16:21

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Hi everyone!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 19:14 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 18:54
Posts: 4036
Location: Cumbria
Hi all,

I've been away driving up and down the country (all within the limit of course!) this last few days and I notice they've finally gone and done it! it was all boarded up and deserted when I dropped by this afternoon!

What happened at the "death" then? did I miss anything particularly exciting? Were they about to publish the January accident statistics?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 20:32 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
Yes, EVERYTHING was going to be revealed on February the 30th! :lol:

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hi everyone!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 21:48 
Offline
Police Officer and Member
Police Officer and Member

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 22:53
Posts: 565
Location: Kendal
Mole wrote:
Hi all,

I've been away driving up and down the country (all within the limit of course!) this last few days and I notice they've finally gone and done it! it was all boarded up and deserted when I dropped by this afternoon!

What happened at the "death" then? did I miss anything particularly exciting? Were they about to publish the January accident statistics?


Good to see you Mole. I hoped you would make the transition. Plenty on this site for you to get your teeth into... :)

You too Ernest. I was in the middle of drawing up a 'Banerigg' diagram for uploading to CSCP when the plug was pulled! :cry: Could perhaps have a look at the topic here sometime.

_________________
Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hi everyone!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 08:58 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
IanH wrote:
Mole wrote:
Hi all,

I've been away driving up and down the country (all within the limit of course!) this last few days and I notice they've finally gone and done it! it was all boarded up and deserted when I dropped by this afternoon!

What happened at the "death" then? did I miss anything particularly exciting? Were they about to publish the January accident statistics?


Good to see you Mole. I hoped you would make the transition. Plenty on this site for you to get your teeth into... :)

You too Ernest. I was in the middle of drawing up a 'Banerigg' diagram for uploading to CSCP when the plug was pulled! :cry: Could perhaps have a look at the topic here sometime.

Did you see Steve's posts on the subject? If so, what is your opinion of their content?
I thought his view was blinkered at best - I would noot trust somebody with that attitude to teach driving or road safety!
The view across the picture is important whether it is a consious or unconcious influence on the driver's thought process.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 01:25 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
Image
There you are Ian, and this time I checked the brightness after I exported and uploaded it, so I'll be cross if it's not right!
Motorists seeing the road opposite, derive a false impression of where they think the road will take them, once they get round the bend in front.
While the bend at the top can be negotiated in comfort at 40-45 (60 if you know your passengers extremely well) by even novice drivers, it has a 30 advisory speed. IMHO the excess speed, carried forward into the next bend, AND the one which follows it in the dip, is the cause of many of the spills there - thankfully often when it is quiet, and nobody is coming the other way at the time.

Squeezing in the TWO lanes going Kendal bound, has tightened the exit from the downhill bend, which takes strangers (and some locals) by surprise - see here, I have dotted the natural safer path through the corner, compared to the lane markings.
Image
You can see the two cars ahead, one emerging from the dip, the other about to enter it, so crossing the white line to straighten the bend, and limit the effect of excess speed, WITHOUT breaking is liable to end in a mishap!
None of these bends is dangerous in itself, but coupled with the build up of events through them all, spills are almost inevitable.
The central lane should become a phantom island, to separate traffic, and give an escape for vehicles coming upon a slower vehicle around the bend on the way to the top of the Kendal side - usually a lorry, or bus, but also cars with caravans or no clutch!
Finally.....
Image
the double whites should extend up the hill, to link with the next bends doubles. Too often vehicles coming down this stretch, towards the camera view, try and squeeze in a last minute overtake, before they reach the bend.
Since the slower vehicle is often accelerating down the hill, and unseen cars can exit (from the position of the previous image), trouble can be expected!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


Last edited by Ernest Marsh on Fri Feb 18, 2005 23:20, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 09:04 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:35
Posts: 92
Location: Midlands
I'm not sure whether it's just me (or, more accurately, my machine) but I can't see any of the pictures you've posted above.

_________________
If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 21:16 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4813
Location: Essex
The sitr from which they are meant to be shown has a filter on it. To see the pictures, open each one in turn in a window of its own. In IE, wrong-click the red cross and select Properties - block the full address in, eg, http://photos1.blogger.com/img/259/3540 ... igg2.1.jpg - and paste it in a new broweser window.

Edit: It (ie the blog site) has rather annoyingly - and cleverly - now created a DNS entry to get redirects and hence prouce 404 errors.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 23:23 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
Roger wrote:
The sitr from which they are meant to be shown has a filter on it. To see the pictures, open each one in turn in a window of its own. In IE, wrong-click the red cross and select Properties - block the full address in, eg, http://photos1.blogger.com/img/259/3540 ... igg2.1.jpg - and paste it in a new broweser window.

Edit: It (ie the blog site) has rather annoyingly - and cleverly - now created a DNS entry to get redirects and hence prouce 404 errors.

There - edited to change to a different host!
Not such big pictures, but should stay put without all the jiggery pokery!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 23:38 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 23:42
Posts: 3820
Hi Ernest!

Know the road (I think! - Driven on it when visiting the Mad Doc).

Know what you mean! Have you written to the council about joining the double whites? And the suggestions regarding a slight re-engineering?

Incidentally what was Steve's response to this problem..

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 00:09 
Offline
User

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 18:58
Posts: 306
Location: LanCA$Hire ex Kendal
For the benefit of those who dont know the A591 - the camera really can lie!! :lol:

On Ernest's photos, apart from the third one, the gradient isnt really apparent. Correct me if i'm wrong (as usual) Ernest, but I remember about 15-20 years ago before they put up the 30 advisory sign; there was a 1:10 gradient warning - why has that been removed??

QED - this is a NSL road, but 60 mph downhill a bit tricky in "normal" vehicles...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 00:13 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
Well I cannot quote Steve word for word, but I think he suggested convoying cars through the area! :lol:
I am waiting for Ian to bring us one of his diagrams, because he was about to respond to the CSCP post before it was pulled.

Funnily enough, Ian and I were discussing this site, when our thread was deleted once before, because we made mention of an accident which was to be the subject of a coroners court, and Admin got nervous, and deleted it!
When the pictures dissapeared, I thought it was devine intervention, telling us not to bother!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 01:31 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
There are'nt many gradient signs left anywhere - a bit like the accident blackspot signs - big exclamation mark in a red triangle!
I can manage 41-43 mph on my bike if I leave the cycle path and use the road. The gradient isnt the problem, it only contributes to the difficulties. I am sure panic braking is the cause of the collisions with the wall. The victims zoom down the hill, into the bend.... and then the kink tightens it for them, and the inexperienced ones go for the brake. The car does a 180 turn, until it is lined up with the last direction of travel, and reverses into the wall at speed, bounces out, round and puts a second hole in the wall 6 - 15 feet from the first point of impact!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 01:49 
Offline
User

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 18:58
Posts: 306
Location: LanCA$Hire ex Kendal
Indeed, just reinforces the point that a driver needs to evaluate every corner/junction every time! eg you could drive round the block, 2 min later there's a dust cart in the way....

In the case of Bannerigg - you've followed the "my speed" driver for several miles from the ridiculous 20mph zone at Waterhead, all the way through to Windermere, finally chance to overtake on Bannerigg - low and behold, the numpty drives up the hill in the outside lane at 30 mph...

Next day, Mr Numpty writes to the Times, complaining of "road rage" on Bannerigg.... :evil:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 04:36 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Ernest Marsh wrote:
There are'nt many gradient signs left anywhere - a bit like the accident blackspot signs - big exclamation mark in a red triangle!
I can manage 41-43 mph on my bike if I leave the cycle path and use the road. The gradient isnt the problem, it only contributes to the difficulties. I am sure panic braking is the cause of the collisions with the wall. The victims zoom down the hill, into the bend.... and then the kink tightens it for them, and the inexperienced ones go for the brake. The car does a 180 turn, until it is lined up with the last direction of travel, and reverses into the wall at speed, bounces out, round and puts a second hole in the wall 6 - 15 feet from the first point of impact!


Careful, Ernest, you're close to giving dangerous advice there.

Suppose we enter a bend just fractionally too fast and then discover that the bend gets tighter. If we don't have a method for reducing speed we're going to be going far too fast for the later tighter sections of the bend. In such cases, a little judicious braking is necessary to save the day.

It's true that late and heavy braking will have you leaving the road backwards - but equally no braking at all will have you leaving the road forwards (and in the case of a left hand bend may leave you drifting wide into oncoming traffic).

There's a further discussion on the subject on: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/braking.html

The bottom line is this:

forget 'never brake in a bend' - it's false and dangerous advice

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 09:27 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
Agreed - it's the "Oh my god" foot to the floor approach which causes the grief - panic braking.
I have a diesel, and plan my corners accordingly, meaning I rarely have to brake, but many times I am forced to, because the driver in front suddenly THINKS he is going too fast, and anchors up. In all sorts of situations it is easy to brake without harm - advice is often outdated by improvements in design.
I always aim to stop in the distance I have left between me and the car in front for just such an occassion.

Aquaplanning is another more infrequent occurrance due to improved tyre design, but when it does happen, you can tell the inexperienced drivers from those who have looked and learned.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:28 
Offline
Camera Partnership Staff
Camera Partnership Staff

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 15:38
Posts: 413
The 30mph advisory has been put in as a measure to "advise" drivers to take it easy in this location. Ernest is now giving advice to drivers who have chosen to ignore that advice even when they don't know the road.

The advice is there free of charge, why not suggest that drivers take it?

Ernest's description of the person who falls foul of the Safespeed method of driving by arrogant perception of ones driving skills is the cause of mishaps like this. In this place, the advice from the sign is good, the ignorance of it is bad.

It's that simple really.

Steve's suggestion of the convoy was sarcastic of course but those that ignore signs placed by well meaning road authorities deserve to have a big CONVOY THROGH BENDS ONLY mark on their vehicle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:27 
Offline
User

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 15:52
Posts: 461
Have to agree with Paul on this one.
Another term is "trailbraking". It takes practice and experience to do it right but gives the necessary degree of control rather than the numpty method of "Oh my god!".


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:35 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
JJ wrote:
The advice is there free of charge, why not suggest that drivers take it?

Ernest's description of the person who falls foul of the Safespeed method of driving by arrogant perception of ones driving skills is the cause of mishaps like this. In this place, the advice from the sign is good, the ignorance of it is bad.

It's that simple really.


I really don't know what this is supposed to mean. Perhaps you think the roads would be safer if we told people what speed to drive at all the time?

Perhaps we could hire guys to hold up speed advisories behind every traffic jam? Perhaps we could put a speed sign on every bend that changed automatically if it was wet? Or icy? Or snowy? Or if a sports car came along?

Perhaps...

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:54 
Offline
Camera Partnership Staff
Camera Partnership Staff

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 15:38
Posts: 413
SafeSpeed wrote:
JJ wrote:
The advice is there free of charge, why not suggest that drivers take it?

Ernest's description of the person who falls foul of the Safespeed method of driving by arrogant perception of ones driving skills is the cause of mishaps like this. In this place, the advice from the sign is good, the ignorance of it is bad.

It's that simple really.


I really don't know what this is supposed to mean. Perhaps you think the roads would be safer if we told people what speed to drive at all the time?

Perhaps we could hire guys to hold up speed advisories behind every traffic jam? Perhaps we could put a speed sign on every bend that changed automatically if it was wet? Or icy? Or snowy? Or if a sports car came along?

Perhaps...


No! Of course not the signs are there for a reason. The particular route in question, ia a well known tourist route, staying within the advisory signs. would probably make the journey quicker rather than slower, especialy between Easter and October.

I thought we told people what speed to drive at anyhow (Max speed) :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 14:49 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 13:50
Posts: 2643
SafeSpeed wrote:
forget 'never brake in a bend' - it's false and dangerous advice


Agreed. This advice is only really true on the racetrack, where you're right on the limits of adhesion and any braking whatsoever is going to send you hurtling off the track.

In my younger days, I found that a short dab on the brakes to scrub off a little bit of speed works well when a bend unexpectedly tightens on you.
Since those days, however, I have driven according to another old racing maxim: "If in doubt, enter late". What this means is that if you're unsure what the bend is going to do, you slow down a bit more than you would normally do before the bend, and start turning into the bend later than you normally would. That way, you have more safety margin and are less likely to run out of road.
And it works for me - tightening bends aren't a problem.

Perhaps a sign indicating that the bend tightens up wouldn't go amiss.

Regards
Peter


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.332s | 12 Queries | GZIP : Off ]