Safe Speed Forums

Could you expand on that please, Robin

By the way my comment on pushing pavement cyclists was not meant as an incitement to violent - just an indication of how vulnerable cyclists are and thus how foolish they are to mix with pedestrians.

Incidentally I don't have an Agenda. I have a Mercian and a Ribble and a cheap Halford's own-brand, but not an Agenda. And I cycle on the road not the web

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Sure, I was referring specifically to weepej's comments about inappropriate data sets and the failure to factor in cyclist-miles. Similar questions have been raised about studies supporting speed cameras/lower speed limits/bikes make roads safer/etc and he has not been willing to get nearly so excited by them, since if the government says so, it must be true, so long as they are agreeing with him.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

I don't think I've ever said miles travelled should be discounted when looking at stats*. However you'd be squeeking if they figured races and stunt shows into car crash statistics.

*I do think is disingenuous to figure in motorway miles when discussing car on ped action.

I agree that motorway miles are not relevant here - not sure about disingenuous, but certainly not correct.

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I won't slave for beggar's pay,
likewise gold and jewels,
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools

Fair point; does anyone have figures for on-road/commute related without the "leisure/ off-road" stats?

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

I found th se figures for Scotland in 2004 at http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/933/0031860.pdf

Thirteen per cent of cycling accidents where reported to have occurred on the main
road. Adults were much more likely than children to have a cycling accident on the
main road. There were large numbers of accidents on the pavement (29%), and 43%
of all child accidents occurred on the pavement. The greatest proportion of accidents
(41%) occurred off-road and, therefore, were not captured by STATS19. Adults were
more likely to have off-road accidents than children

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

So does that mean cycling on the road is safer than cycling on the pavement, especially for children?

(In Scotland, at least?)

No. As presented those statistics are meaningless. Which begs the question why I bothered to present them

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

The results do seem a little counterintuitive...

Not really, pavements are full of holes, lamp posts, postboxes and pedestrians, they are very narrow in places and uneven, and you've got to cross side roads by negotiating kerbs. Simply going slowly on a pushbike is enough to make many people fall off of their own accord, and falling off a pushbike will pretty much always result in some injury or other.

I imagine you are much more likely to come a cropper riding on the pavements than riding on the roads.

Which does beg the question as to why folk people do ride on the pavements

Mad Doc has his claws on some hospital stats from the A&E of the Trust he work in.

These show that plenty of accidents occur when cyclists ride on the pavements.. to the pedestrians.... who are the most vulnerable of all.

But then I note from a quick skim through that the poor pedestrian does not even get a mention of the injuries inflicted on them by these "cyclists".

Oh.. und by the way that wus I married to will be probably post up how one almost made me a widow in 2005. Mad Doc was walking (yes .. he does occasionally. He not allowed to drive Jag or Stag or Moggie Maniac (aka Morris 1000) on the pavement.

Anyway .. he walk. Past some trench for gas works. Pavement cyclist pushes past him und knocks him into this trench. He cut his leg - narrowly missed an artery.

I had to dance attendance on him.. Pooor deearrr! He could not even find the strength to stir the milk into his tea.

So .. will we say those who choose to ride on a pavement .. then bleat about how they should be regarded as normal traffic .. yet never attempt to blend in with the traffic are "bad "cyclists""


You bet we do.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

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Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

As I said those stats, as they stand, are meaningless. We need know what proportion of cycling miles are on road/pavement/non-road. Also it is likely that it is the less confident and younger cyclists who more often use the pavements.

I take issue with "pedestrians are the most vulnerable of all". That accolade goes to cyclists which is why they are encouraged to wear helmets whereas a baseball cap is regarded as sufficient protection for a pedestrian.

And cars do frequently drive on the pavement in order to park.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Or to steal a march in queue; there's a road near me where cars are frequently driven half on half off the pavement so they can undercut a queue and take a left turn.

Or to steal a march in queue; there's a road near me where cars are frequently driven half on half off the pavement so they can undercut a queue and take a left turn.


That can be a result of bad planning by the highways dept. There are pavements round by me which are about 12foot wide and never hardly have a pedestrian on them but if they were a couple of foot narrower it would enable left turning traffic to flow easily, instead of adding five minutes or more to getting through a set of lights simply because the two or three cars waiting to go straight on are holding up dozens which would otherwise be able to turn left.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Ha ha!!

No that's the result of people deciding to drive their cars on the pavement!

I see you're happy to excuse it when people in cars do it, let's see if you can you excuse it when people on cycles do it.

Go on, you know you can.

I'm not happy to excuse it for either group - is that OK?

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I won't slave for beggar's pay,
likewise gold and jewels,
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools

Absolutely, but what will graball say, he's already defended people in cars using the pavement to steal a march on a queue of cars, what about cyclists?

Come on graball!

I think his 40 years "experience" of driving is what makes it safe. But that would mean that my fifty-five years cycling experience would make it even safer for me to cycle on the pavement.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

You are both WRONG, I don't condone driving or cycling on the pavement and I challenge you to point out where I say that! What I did say is that, very often, pavements are far too wide for their actrual usaeage and if, in those cases, they were narrower, people wouldn't have to drive on the pavement. Can you not understand that???

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Mea culpa After rereading your post I apologize unreservedly

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown