Safe Speed Forums

Could I interest Sir in a nice Series 2 Landrover???
...or a Model T Ford, perhaps?

I think we need to get this straight once and for all. NOBODY CAN MAKE A CAR WITHOUT "A TRUCK LOAD OF ELECTRONIC CRAP" AND SELL IT IN EUROPE ANY MORE!!!!! It's illegal! We are stuck with engine management systems because of environmental legislation. The days of twidling the mixture screw on the side of the carb until the tickover sounds nice are GONE and there's nothing the manufacturers can do about it!

Having got that of my chest, I will admit to a certain degree of sympathy for the idea that cars have too many "toys" these days and many of them are of limited use. Manufacturers provide them because (a) people buy them and (b) once you've got the sensors there and a computer to proces the data, you can get lots of "toys" (like trip computers) for almost no extra cost (other than the code to run the programme). My problem is that I like a bit of luxury. I like a car with decent performance, lots of space and lots of refinement. Unfortunately, that kind of car generally comes with lots of "toys" too - whether I want them or not. That said, they rarely leave it immobilised if they pack up. A couple of cars ago, I had one with electrically adjustable REAR seats ( ) They never worked during the time I had it and I never bothered fixing them. Car went OK though!

Getting back to the pad wear indicator light, I also have a low screenwash light. I think it's GREAT! I can't see the screenwash reservoir and there's nothing more annoying than being on the motorway in this weather with loads of salt getting splattered all over the screen and running out of screen wash! The sensor is a lump of cork on a stick. At the top of the stick is a small magnet and above that, a reed switch. The rest of the "visibility enhancement additive replenishment status management system" is...

...a wire and a light. (OK, and a relay because the light has to come on then the switch opens, rather than closes)!

I guess you're probably right - although I sometimes wonder whether a fair number of crashes are just not RECORDED as hardware faults. Now if a defective brake disc were to shatter, or shear off from its bell, I guess it would be fairly obvious, but I wouldn't mind betting that there will be a number of crashes that were at least contributed to by mechanical failure (or inadequacy). Most crashes don't relly get investigated in any depth (unless someone dies).

Electric windows always annoy me. Why are they almost invariably wired through the ignition? The number of times that I have locked the car then noticed a window open; having to climb back in, sit down and turn on the ignition before being able to close the windows is a pain.

One exception was a Pogo 405 which enabled the window motors when the drivers door was open. A surprising show of intelligence from a French company. But they made up for it by having the windows share a circuit with the indicators. On the occasion when that fuse blowed I was unable to signal either by lights or by hand

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Yes, it really sucks. It's due to business lobbying - they love regulations that cost consumers, but they hate "red tape" that protects consumers.



Do you need a flashing light to tell you when to go to the toilet?

Sorry, no offence. Each to his own. The trouble is that the "I like it loaded" brigade has prevented people like me from getting access to minimal technology. I just want a mark II escort at low cost. That's as good as it gets - forget the bullshit.

Yes - it's guaranteed to stop you from ever relaxing. You could spend the credit crunch going over all the tiny things that will go wrong over the next couple of years!

Funnilly enough...

As it happens...



Increacing numbers of vehicles incorperate this sort of daftness.

As Abercrombie says, the real point of it is that now, should you wish to change your pads at home, you then have to take it to the $tealer to get them to put the warning light out by "telling" the electronics that you have changed the pads with their diagnostc tool! (All that computing power! And the poor little management system cant work it out for itself!)




Wrong Wrong Wrong!

Whilst it is true that emissions regulations require a level of fueling and ignition controll that it is likly that only an electronic engine management system can provide. the manufacturers could make the whole lot FAR more user freindly.

The manufacturers have taken advantage of the emissions requirements to lock owners (and independent workshops, as far as possible) out of the system!

This is how it Could have been done (or Could be in the future, if I were in charge! )

OBD III

1) Implementation

All new Vehicles shall be OBDIII compatible by 20XX

2) Specification

i) All vehicles shall contain a VMM (Vehicle Monitoring Module)
ii) The VMM will be connected to all other ECM’s on the vehicle via a simple network loop.
iii) The VMM’s only other connections will be power supply and a standard USB connector with which to communicate with the outside world.
iv) The VMM will be “Robust” IE all connectors will be protected against over voltage, short circuit and reverse polarity in any combination. The casing will be proof against water ingress and possess a limited degree of fire resistance.
v) The VMM will carry a lifetime warranty. Faulty VMM’s will be replaced FOC regardless of age. A VMM will be deemed faulty if, when powered up, comms can not be made.

3) Function


i) The VMM will continuously monitor the performance of all other ECM’s
ii) The VMM will monitor any faults that arise and store both them and such freeze-frame data as is available at the time faults occur.
iii) Access to all VMM functions will be made using standard web browser software via the standard USB link
iv) The VMM will contain in ROM complete workshop manuals, servicing data and parts catalogues appropriate to the vehicle in question written in a standardised format (i.e. the layout and navigation of the manuals shall be defined and be the same for all manufacturers) The manuals will be written in HTML or some other open access format!
v) The VMM will be capable of providing a gateway to the other ECM’s for such software updates as may be needed during the vehicles life. Such reprogramming may be carried out via a standard PC and the USB connection. All such software updates will be provided FOC.
vi) The VMM will provide a gateway for functions such as recoding and setting re-adaptions, coding new modules etc again via an HTML or similar open access environment.

If you see what I mean!

None of this is hard, all it takes (as Dr Strangelove would have said) is ze VILL!

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

The guy that does major things on my van (timing belts) also does modern hi-tek stuff.
He has a book that details how to reset the warnings.....in most cars it can be done by using combinations of dash switches.....

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

You are correct in that many things can be reset from the dashboard, but it is often fiddly and time consuming. (I cant, off hand, remember the procedure for resetting BMW brake warning lights, but it is something like leaving the ignition on (engine not running) for an hour or so)

Another example of "Warning light madness". Many recent mercs dont have a dipstick! The oil level is checked electronically. Unfortunatly this means that it takes AGES to do an oil change because every time you run the engine the reading wont operate untill the reading has "settled" which takes 10-15 minuits.

It also seems daft to replace a simple and foolproof level checking system with a whole load of techycrap which can go wrong and lead the owner into a false sense of security. (I wouldnt mind so much an electronic systenm that worked along side a dipstick. But to remove the dipstick option seems bizarre!)

Remember, the operators of Three Mile Island "knew" the pressure relief valve was shut because he warning light said so!

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Mole said ”NOBODY CAN MAKE A CAR WITHOUT "A TRUCK LOAD OF ELECTRONIC CRAP" AND SELL IT IN EUROPE ANY MORE!!!!! It's illegal!”

Very true, I was recently in discussion about reviving an 80’s Classic car – the manufacturer could tool up again, the original injection system would no-longer be compatible with the new engine that would be required for EU Emission regulations, it would no-longer meet NCAP tests etc. Basically it couldn’t be done and remain true to the spirit of the original car. What we marvelled at in the 80’s is now banned by EU!

Personally I prefer the raw driving experience. My cabin didn’t work for about 10 years (pressure safety valve gunged up), but hey, did Stirling Moss have electric heated seats etc?


Dusty: I can’t comment on every make, but with my car there is a sequence of pressing the clock setting and ignition that re-sets the service warning light (if you don’t have the box of tricks). If buying new (or from a franchised dealer), you should insist in these details aswell as a Manufacturer’s Workshop Manual – don’t think you will have any problems in the current economic climate.

But brake pads don’t need “re-setting” because the new pad completes the electrical circuit and the lamp goes out – I think some-one is pulling the wool over your eyes.

There is also EU Law that prevents manufacturer’s operating a closed shop. If you want to go on a manufacturer’s training course you can and you are equality entitled to buy a Manufacturer’s Workshop Manual.

Home servicing doesn’t effect you warranties either and it is a myth that you must use original manufacturer’s parts.

Yes. When making real technology (rather than the consumer oriented "Star Trek" stuff) it's always best to avoid complexity like a plague. Instruments often lie, I'm afraid. Makers like instruments that lie, because you have to take the car in. It's just the way it is. It's a shame engineers have to waste their time on this expensive frippery.

PS: there was also a great deal of overload on the annunciator panels at three mile island. For example, it was possible to silence all the alarms, or none. It was not possible to silence some of the alarms independently. Consequently, the operators silenced none (to avoid information loss) but could not then determine the important alarms from the trivial ones. I had the same problem with a 7 series BWM. It had more panel lights than a 747, and it was a real challenge to ignore them!

I think that some pad lights "latch on" the first time they operate to stop them flashing on and off whilst the reading settles

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

That's the sort of nasty little trick the makers employ. They make the signal latch in a register inside, but don't expose (in an obvious way) the interface to reset it to the owner. Essentially, they sell you the information through their dealer network. If only drivers knew the full catalog of abuse these scumbags employ, they'd keep their old cars going forever, like I do.

PS: the real problem is that the makers are working for themselves, not for us. If they considered us "real"
customers, they'd quit gouging us, and provide some value for money. But they couldn't give a hoot, so
let them go broke. Who cares?

Walley: there is no "reading" as I explained in my previous post. There is just wire at the lower end of the pad that creates an electrical circuit. When the pads wear, it breaks this circuit and light comes on. As soon as new pads are in, the circuit is complete and no need of "electronic re-setting" and it is obvious to the car that new pads are in as the circuit is completed again.

If you make it too easy to reset fault indicators you are in danger of givingcarte-blanch to dodgy second-hand dealers. In my youth I replaced a faulty fuel gauge sender with a resistor so that the gauge always read half-full. The new owner must of thought he was getting fantastic fuel consumption - at least till he ran out of gas.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

It is easy to re-set faults - I do it all the time. Pal has a box that plugs in, gives the code and says what the fault is, press the button to re-set, and if the fault doesn't reoccur - it was just a blip.

It amazes me that people will pay extra for a DVD player, but wont buy a "magic box" that comes with idiot proof instruction and codes. Often these boxes will not only be good your car, but the whole range and sister companies as well. An excellent investment - you could charge your pals and get your money back in no time.

Recently, I had an Air-bag waring lamp on. Box said, it had detected a fault in the steering column connector -I had in fact been adjusting my steering wheel. Re-set and no probs - took literally 2mins - and how much would the garage have charged me? And would they have been so honest as to what was involved?

People are at the mercy of the garages because they choose to be.

What is "too easy"? Possible or not? Costly or cheap? Look, they are afraid of the free market. So they have little groups to come up with wheezes to subvert it. They want the benefits of the free market but with bailouts and without the competition - those guys, eh?

The garages already provide that "service" - you have to pay to "reset" a flippin' light!!! What next? They'll make you pay to open the boot soon! They are just dogs, Lucy, low-born curs.

Exactly, so buy your own "magic box" and do it yourself. The manufacturer's are bound by EU competion law to sell this equipment and provide training.
You could recover the outlay in no time and it would be a lot more convienient, especially if you kept it in the boot.

I read on a motorbike forum that a dealer attempted to charge 1/2 an hour for the time spent arranging a 6k service.

I want good air con, electric windows and electric mirrors, remote central locking (on my house too please) and a good stereo. That'll do.

That said, the electrics on my 10 year old Civic all work perfectly. We get much grumbling about electrics on tractors, they are festooned with the stuff, but make life miles easier and arn't really any bother. We've got an N reg tractor at work, it's done near 8,000 hours and everyone and his dog have driven it. Electric everything, radar the lot. It's had a water pump, the heater core leaks, brakes are getting tired, but all the unreliable electrical gizmos work just fine and if they do go wrong they give you an error code to you know what to fix. Winner.