Safe Speed Forums

I actually said speed may have to be reduced during night time; this does not automatically mean driving slowly is fine.


I find your continued misrepresentation to be wantonly antagonistic.

Now I'm questioning your sincerity. Be careful what you post next. One way or another you are not going to derail another thread.





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You drove it over there, Steve, not me.



No - what it means to you, Steve. We need to know what it means to you. You see, whatever you think, the one in front is different to you.



That must mean the person in front. It's not needless to him, as far as you are concerned. Unless you're going to split more hairs about wanting, needing, desirous etc. Stop wasting time, here, and get with the programme. It's not "everyone" is it? It's needless to you!



Hm... it's a very interesting position that you have adopted there, I have to admit. We'll take a straw poll now: hands up those who think that enjoyment not a valid reason for driving? That's a really weird idea. Are you being straight, or just making an argument?




Well, it's not actually needless if they are enjoying themselves is it? And you haven't made it clear what a normal speed is, so we're still guessing. So far, you have left undefined "needless" and "normal". Do you wish to add any more murky ideas for us to discuss?



I'll be kind to you, and I'll assume you think it is a bad idea to tell young and inexperienced drivers who are proceeding slowly that they should speed up for you.

You seem to have abandoned any form of argument and resorted to veiled threats. I must be winning. Anyway, I'd prefer you to answer some questions. What is the "normal" speed? Is "needless" relativistic? Should slow, cautious drivers be told to speed up? Should the only constraint on speed be the safety limits, or are inexperience, enjoyment, comfort, wear and tear, efficiency or stress also factors? I think you know the answer... don't you?

You're either deliberately trying to misrepresent me, or you forgot to take your meds today!

'Driving at a speed lower than the limit because it's dark' is not the same as 'being able to go faster on very slow roads (that are generally NSL) when it's dark'.

I notice you failed to quote my other line:



Which does not mean the same as:



Especially as given that one can see headlights round tight corners that one can't see round in the daytime it is (in this particular example) easier to see other road users.

(edited for anomalous quote attribution...)

Action has been taken. Please can everyone resume/continue posting in a civil and sincere manner.

Abercrombie, please check your inbox.

For heaven's sake Abercrombie, we've been over this:

If you want to drive for enjoyment, fill your boots, but don't do so at the expense of others who may be driving under time pressure. No, this does not mean that they are driving faster than is legal or safe. If you, as an individual, value birdsong, efficiency, wear and tear or whatever over expediency then don't assume that everyone else does, and if your time is not in high demand then let people who's might be past.

We've also already covered the fact that driving significantly below the safe maximum for the conditions is grounds for failure of a driving test, so if it is ineptitude that leads to this state then perhaps the driver should not be on the roads. Overly slow drivers should not be told to speed up if they cannot safely do so, they should be required to at least take further training before being given the responsibility of solo road use.

Safety must be the factor that sets the absolute maximum speed. Legals limits come a distant second. There may be others, as above, valued by the individual, but those complying with only these too are well within best-practice to do so, and it is not considerate to other road users to impede their progress.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Within the reasonable bounds of unhindered free-flow speed.


I don't see what relativity has to do with this.
Like I said, it is dependent on conditions, but IMO in essence it is absolute, either it is needed or it is not. 'Desired' is something different.


That's what their instructors told them when it was appropriate to do so; if they didn't they fail their test. They should speed up to nominal speeds whilst remaining cautious.


Going slowly (returning to the 25 in a 40 example) is not fuel efficient. The additional fuel usage more than offsets the saving from wear and tear. Inexperienced drivers should make use of the P sticker to inform others of their behaviour; this does not prevent them from pulling in and letting others pass as per HC169. The stress of the following drivers must be considered too. If is so discomforting to go at free-flow speeds such that it affects the driving then something about the driver or their vehicles needs to be changed.

Most of this addresses your other post, the rest of which is obviously insincere (more convenient quoting [twice] and misrepresentation), so there's not need to directly answer that one.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

without the pointless contention steve i doubt there's much disagreement or anything left to discuss.

Soloman, 1964. The slowest 30% have the highest crash risk

wow this is a heated debate! is it always like this in these forums?

More so when Abercrombie joins in.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Those curves are very surprising and can only be true in limited circumstances. For example: with a average speed of forty mph a stationary vehicle would have several hundreds times more risk of an accident which doesn't seem to square with reality.

Is there a web reference for this research?

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

I wouldn't be surprised to see a curve of this rough shape for any kind of road, but the speed distribution would be proportional to the average speed of the road.

This correlates with the 85th percentile principle rather well, doesn't it?



No, it &%£ing isn't!



Joking apart, Safespeed can get quite heated, but we try and keep it polite, even when provoked!

you go park up in the middle of a live 40mph lane and see how risky you feel it is

Yes indeed but that would affect the statistics for both the 40mph vehicle and for the stationary vehicle so wouldn't affect th shape of the curve

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Why assume that the other driver involved would be doing 40mph? Statistically it's far more likely to be someone doing significantly less. Regardless, it is such a rare event, and the probability of an undesirable outcome so high, that it need not sit at odds with the trend.

_________________
Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Some seemed to think there was more to discuss and there probably is, I would continue if there is a chance of a valid point yet to be made.

I'm happy to have opinions scrutinised from all possible angles, so long as the intent isn't mischevious. Testing arguments is fine, lord knows we need more advocates and opposers on this forum, but the line is drawn when patience is tested.

One good thing to take from all this, I think the reader can now justify their opinion, to themselves and to others, with the confidence of knowing this argument has been heavily scrutinised from all reasonable (and unreasonable) angles, that driving slowly (with the caveats met) is indeed bad behavour.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Soloman, D., 1964, Collisions on main rural highways related to speed, driver and vehicle.
Federal Highway Administration.

Could only find a wikipedia online reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve

Thanks. That article does point out that the low speed part of the curve is badly distorted by accidents involving vehicles entering or leaving the road.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Nevertheless, it still puts the lie to "Speed Kills".

_________________
Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.