Safe Speed Forums

I think this describes the speed awareness course system operating in Lancashire perfectly!



"Nuff Said!"

Chief Constable's or LPA Chairperson's comments explanations etc would be appreciated.

Footnote: these are not the opinions of Safespeed but are solely my own.

Now The Chief Constable is trying to hide behind ACPO for his decision to hide Stats!
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=19733

Reference two employees on disciplinary.........

Suprise! surprise!

Hearing has been adjourned 6 - 8 weeks!

Looks like Steve Finnigan has more problems to resolve!

Lancashire Courts Confirm their records as accurate and do not reconcile with Police figures!

Request sent today to Nigel Evans.M.P.


I have decided not to reproduce the HMCS reply in full until The Chief Constable has a copy of it.

However it has been supplied to people who have an interest.

I await Steve Finnigans resolution or cover up!

Whichever way he decides to go!

"GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE!"

Sent yesterday, so I'm sure The Chief Constable has sight:

Below is the response from The Finance Director of HMCS Cumbria & Lancashire & the questionable figures from Lancashire Constabulary supplied under FoI.
Without any supporting documentation or indications from me as to what the differences between The Constabulary's figures & The Courts actual proceedings could be, The Finance Director indicated with similar thoughts to myself.( See reply 2 to this post published here weeks before this complaint was presented)

The supplied figures from Lancashire Constabulary for 2003 defy belief as the Ministry for Justice's figure are recorded as 190,000 FPNs for that year as being paid or concluded through the courts!



Below are the returns (FPNH1s) from Lancashire Road Safety Partners for 2003-7
The claimed payments of issued FPNs are for red light & speeding offences ONLY.
The difference between the PAID & ISSUED FPNs are claimed to have been sent to the courts for conclusion.


In November 2007, following a complaint, The Independant District Auditor for LRSP, MIKE THOMAS, undertook an investigation into the Partnership's returns.
In February he concluded that they were in order to rules regulations to evidence.

In February 2008 The Lancashire Police Authority, following a complaint,employed The Preston City Solicitor, Angela Harrison LPA's OUTSIDE INDEPENDANT Monitor,to investigate the involvement of The Constabulary in LRSP.

After a meeting at Lancashire County Hall in April with:
The INDEPENDANT OUTSIDE AUDITOR for LPA & Lancashire Constabulary,MIKE THOMAS (He's also The INDEPENDANT OUTSIDE AUDITOR for Lancashire County Council).
The INDEPENDANT OUTSIDE internal auditor, Rachel Tanner from THE FINANCE DEPARTMENT of Lancashire County Council (whose boss is IAN COSH)
A representative from LPA
And they concluded that the returns were accurate & fairly stated to evidence.

In September 2008 IAN COSH DIRECTOR OF FINANCE LANCASHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL & TREASURER FOR LPA undertook an extensive investigation into the Partnerships returns & the operation of Lancashire County Councils SPEED AWARENESS COURSES & concluded:
Yes........ Everything in order to evidence etc.....etc.....

Some familiar names keep cropping up time after time............................

All these people are paid from the public to ensure that no public money is misspent, missused or fiddled!

They seem to be paid several times over for the same job! In effect AUDITING THEIR OWN WORK!!

It took an investigation by a REAL INDEPENDANT public watchdog, The Financial Director for Cumbria & Lancashire Courts System,who,in less than a week.totally discredited all the above findings.!

However as the Court's have been dealing with fines, FPNs and millions of financial transaction on behalf of the Government for many more years than these self interested bodies, and overseen by a REAL INDEPENDANT WATCHDOG, THe National AUDIT OFFICE,it comes as no suprise.

No honour amongst thieves!

However they took on the wrong department when they tried to cover up all the inflated FPN payments claimed, by stating that it was all down to the Courts failing to process!!!

So.... Madam Chairperson.... What's going on ?

VILLAS IN MARBELLA or TENERIFF PAID FOR BY THE PUBLIC FROM THE INCOME FROM MUGS WHO PAY THESE SPEEDING FPNs WHEN, after all they might NEVER HAVE BEEN SPEEDING AFTER ALL!?
Remember the speed gun King and speed awareness courses at 33,34, or were they even travelling at these speeds ?
Questions need to be answered and not by INTERNAL AUDITORS!

I think this will re-inforce the suspicions that Lancashire Constabulary have been subsidising their CTO budget by paying for ALL COSTS for ALL THEIR MOTORING FPNS from the income of Speeding Income through The Partnership.

These are the provisionsl figures from the Ministry for Justice for 2007.
Lancashire Constabulary figures for Speed camera offences as above FOI:
24,323
COMBINED FIGURES FOR ALL MOTORING OFFENCES CUMBRIA & LANCASHIRE:
24,500!

They get greedier & greedier by the year!



I don't think it takes much of an investigation or an INDEPENDANT AUDITOR to compare these!

We always smelled rats . but we accepted the course as decent per reports. Never happy about way invited. We now find Manchester drivesafe do this too

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Smily to penny.. penny to pound
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Mad Moggie wrote:


They claim this scheme operates under ACPO guidelines because its national. That means they offer this course as an alternative to Enforcement; i.e. FPNs or prosecution.

ACPO Guidelines = 10%+2. Speeding enforcement therefore is 35,46,57.Anybody being offered speed awareness below these speeds in these three bands is being conned!
The Chief Constables discretion, if operating under ACPO Guidelines, only applies to speeding enforcement methods or alternatives to speeding offences that breach the ACPO levels, not below.
Their website is decidely coy about the levels of enforcement, they say "leeway" sets the level. It's 10%+2 if ACPO Guidelines are operating.

How many more are skimming off the top through this scheme!!!

Looks like you are right to smell ££££££££££££££££££ mad moggie from this lot!


Here's the last three years returns for Gt. Manchester under the "netting off process". They also set the level of grant made to the Partnerships for the next 3 years.


The number of cancelled tickets (NIPs issued against FPNs issued) contains the speed awareness "offers". They are pretty consistent between 32,000 to 37,000.
NIPs should only be issued for offences at 10%+2.
Not blues & twos
Not foreign vehicles
Not DVLA untraceables
These cannot raise an NIP because emergency vehicles are exempt & the others don't have anywhere to send the NIP to!
Remember the police get paid from the provider for "offers" not take ups.
If only 20,000 take up the course at,say, £80.00 that's £1,600,000 a year! NICE..................
If any are offered below 10%+2 it's a fiddle.

The acpo guidance is just that, guidance.
The law is such that 31mph in a 30 limit is an offence.
If you chose to use the acpo guidance in a court you will (I am sure...) find that they pay scant attention to acpo guidelines.
In any case, the court will not fine you £60.00 and give you three points.
At the end of the day most people cannot afford the time, money and trouble of going to court.
Time off work (court, solicitor consultation/s) etc
Fine (likely to be in excess of £200.00)
Costs (again, likely to be in excess of £200.00)
Points (30 limit offence, so probably 6 points)
Under the 30 minute rule by the law society you can get free advice. I suspect that for many people the advice will be: "you'll lose, and it will cost you thousands"

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jomukuk wrote:


Speeding policy was set by ACPO in order to give the motorist a "fair crack" and was presented to Parliament as such before the Road Traffic Act was ammended in 1998.
Their policy may only be "guidelines" but in relation to being members of Partnerships operating under The Road Safety Camera Scheme it is a condition laid down to the Ministry of Transport for acceptance to operate within the scheme. All partnerships have agreed to abide by ACPOs thresholds limits and present it with their application to operate a Partnership each year. Breach of Partnership conditions - NO CAMERA SCHEME, NO NETTING OFF so The Chief Constable has to carry on FUNDING his policy from his budget and the whole of the FPNs income goes straight to the Treasury.

That's why Lancashire, who were the only Partnership offering a SACs, in 2001, could only offer it at 35mph because that was the fixed ENFORCEMENT THRESHOLD under ACPO "Guidance" and nothing below qualified for prosecution by way of FPN!!! Not that that put them off ONCE THEY WERE IN!

In relation to SAC courses these are outside the Road Safety Camera Scheme and are offered as an ALTERNATIVE TO PROSECUTION i.e. 10%+2, and are ALL run under the criteria of ACPO!
Good link here:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?aut ... icle&id=34

Any Chief Constable can operate a speeding policy in any manner he wishes. The law says 30 is the limit, 31 is breaking the limit and is prosecutable.True!
But if the Chief Constable chooses that's the way he wants to go he has to do so OUTSIDE of The Partnership and he funds his policy from his budget and gets NO INCOME from Speeding Fines; This goes straight through the Courts to the Treasury.
When will people understand it's ALL ABOUT MONEY ?

ACPO guidelines they may be but when Police accept them to get their greedy mitts on my CASH then they operate the system within the "Guidelines" or they don't get my money and they shouldn't get anybody elses either!

Jomukuk wrote:

My reply to this is that I would be seeking a legal aid certicate for my defence, on the grounds of "Public Interest".
Request at Magistrates that it went to Case Management and ask the CPS how they came into possesion of photographic camera evidence indicating 31mph when the camera was supposed to be set to 35mph under ACPOs guidelines that the Chief Constable had agreed to abide by.
Been there, done it got the tee shirt!
No case to answer.

Partnership Makes An Offer Of Repayments & Removal Of Points!

Linda Sanderson has clarified the REAL POLICY of The Partnership and offered FULL refunds to any prosecutions SACs offers etc BELOW Chief Constables published POLICY!



Published Here:
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/ ... tm?t=35520

However she must not have realised just HOW MUCH this would cost!
You see it's still going on...........
31mph fined Blackpool
http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/black ... eLength=10

daveee will still have his paperwork to prove and IF the Blackpool newspaper (LEP) wanted to blow this they would have his email address & could substantiate.
Well done Linda! However sometime SPIN backfires and unlike the local press, internet publication doesn't become tomorrows chip paper!! It stays around A LONG TIME!
Go get your money back!!!!

Where's the Partnership's website gone ?

It appears that http://www.safe2travel.co.uk is now unavailable!

I wonder why ?

Anbody else have some luck ?


Perhaps they read SAFESPEED!

It worked for me!

_________________
Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

SPIN & THE PRESS !

On the 13th (Unlucky for some!) October 2007 the LEP ran a full page sensational article Headlined "Flash Cordon" that was extremely political and exposed just how THE GOVERNMENT was benefitting financially under the new grants scheme that came in on April 2007.
It CLEARLY (?) exposed how THE GOVERNMENT netted nearly £300,000 from Lancashire's speeding motorists in only 75 days!
It carries such statements under photographs as:

and

All the figures add up; 4,930 napped motorist times £60.00 each = £295,800, nearly £300,000!!
Straight into Government coffers !!!
Informative & factual, especially the one about : The FINES WILL GO STRAIGHT TO CENTRAL GOVERNMENT COFFERS RATHER THAN TO LANCASHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL. (They never did actually go to LCC, they ALWAYS went to the government but costs of running the cameras could be claimed back!)
Now we can see just how much THE GOVERNMENT are REALLY making from speeding cameras.
Irate motorists jumping up & down !
Syndicate out to the Nationals!
Maybe even questions asked in Parliament!
All good stuff!


However......................
We should remember Linda Sanderson's referred to research:


As Lancashire operate SACs at
30, 40, & 50 mph limits at ACPOs 10%+2= A CAUTION
36,37,38; 46 47,48;56,57,58 are eligible for a SACs if they meet the ACPO criteria; it is reasonable to assume that THE MAJORITY of the motorists through these roadworks will be in these thresholds!
Therefore THE MAIN BENIFICIARY will be LANCASHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL for their SACs!
Actually if we take Linda Sandersons research and apply it here:

4,930 motorist at 70% (5 or 6 MPH over) = 3,451 at £80.00 SACs charge: £276,080 to Lancashire County Council!
4,930 -3,451 SACs = 1479 at £60.00 FPN charge = £88,740 STRIGHT INTO GOVERNMENT COFFERS!


NOW WHO's MAKING THE MONEY ?
This is probably why the Chief Constable doesn't want to reveal figures from individual sites as reported elsewhere

It's not as if the reporter doesn't know how speed awareness courses work...................................But that's for next time !!!!£££££££

Press Spin 2

Lancashire County Council must have been over the moon with them not getting any adverse publicity from such an investigative journalist that in:

March 2008 they invited the LEP reporter down (Photographers & all) as guests to their seedy awareness course!!! Sorry Speed Awareness Course!

And again the report could not have been written better by Linda Sanderson or Neil Cunliffe themselves!

The ONLY WORD MISSING WAS:

ADVERTISEMENT!
Must have saved LCC tens of grands for this unbiased editorial report!

We motorists have really to learn to read between & behind the headlines & spin: NO MATTER WHERE IT'S FROM!

Dixie wrote:


Oh Dear!!! Looks like the Partnership's "open, Fair & honest approach to speeding" is open to question!

They have blocked my ISP access!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Not to worry! Complete site available on HD.
Plus two other internet suppliers; Just have to change routers!!

I doubt that; they would have to block our company's ISP too....
Don't be tempted to read too much into this, at least for now.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

I have access by three ISP suppliers none can access safe2travel.
Are you telling me Steve that you can access this site today ?

I can't get to it. All I get is "Network Error (tcp_error)"

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign