Safe Speed Forums

Better not to get me started on the hunting ban. I care not a jot for dressing up in red coats sitting on horses and chasing vermin across the country with a pack of dogs. However, it is just a silly and spiteful piece of legislation which will probably fail in the medium-term.
How long will it be before other passtimes, sports and pursuits are banned. Those who enjoy 'off-roading in 4x4's are under threat of a ban, I wonder how long my sport of motor rallying will be allowed to survive under pressure from the 'greens' who feel that forest tracks are no place for high speed motoring under controlled conditions, angling has been threatened by the 'League against Cruel Sports', on so on.
One gets the feeling that B'liar and his cronies would like us all to just go to work, go home, watch TV and be docile peasants with no voices of our own and no individuality. It's the risk-takers and individuals who made this country great, but they tend not to be politically correct so they must be dumbed down, by force of law if necessary.
That's the way it's going.

Excellent post, Cooperman, nicely put.

And, like JT (and others), I am also VERY worried about the way that freedoms are being taken away since 9-11, under the (convenient for the-powers-that-be) guise of protecting us from terrorism. More mature, considered and balanced actions are required, and less knee-jerk, shock-tactics reactions.

What we need is a unifying organisation to join the Countryside Alliance, the Motor sports Association, the ACU, the ABD, Council for Civil Liberties, and other bodies into one association to fight possible restrictions on our liberties by huge protests and direct actions whenever one group is threatened.
I have never smoked a cigarette in my life, but the way the 'anti-smoking taliban' carry on is absolutely ridiculous.
Unless we all unite we'll be 'picked-off' one interest group at a time until we are all just dumbed-down peasants using public transport to go to work and go home where we'll just sit and watch our dumbed-down TV programmes.
Is this what we'll all have to accept, or do we fight it all now?
I'm just off to take one of my rally cars to display at the International Historic Motorsport Show at Coventry. How long before all motor sport is banned in this country? There are those who would love for that to happen.

After all, "they" have done their utmost to see the British Grand Prix discontinued

Doesn't fit the Scam picture too well does it, having all those cars tearing round at track at 200 mph ...

Think of all the houses Prescott could allow to be built on Brands Hatch and Silverstone.
It will all happen gradually. For example, 4x4 off-roading on what are in law rights of way will probably go first, then boxing, then rallying, then motor racing. All because 'nanny knows best', and we must be protected from ourselves.
Well, who for a bit of anarchy when it happens. After all, the Old Bill can't catch everyone and they may not even want to try.

These is a problem with this in that historically, some "libertarian" issues, such as drug laws, gay rights and censorship, have been identified with the "Left", while others, such as hunting, gun control and anything to do with motor vehicles, have been identified with the "right".

Therefore, while the underlying philosophical principles may be similar, it has been difficult to find common ground.

We have recently seen, for example, people on Cycling + arguing that the principles of the ABD are essentially authoritarian "motor fascism".

"Liberty" (the former NCCL) has always tended to concentrate more on the "Left" than the "Right" issues - which is not so true of its American counterpart, the ACLU.

This makes it easier for the current government, which is of a fundamentally authoritarian nature, and includes many people who in their youth were members of hard-left organisations, to pick issues off one by one.

Possibly the No2ID campaign - against ID cards and the database state - is something where there can be common ground.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

[quote="Cooperman"][quote="JJ"][quote="Cooperman"]Remember, JJ, there may be a world of difference between the powers the Police Service would like to be able to use like phone taps, electronic tagging/tracking of suspects, searches without a warrant, seizure of personal assets, detention without trial (the 'hot potato' at the moment), and the powers the general public find acceptable.
Once the line of acceptability is crossed you have a Police State, whether you accept this or not.
We are already seeing what amounts to 'Malfeasance in a public office' by certain Chief Constables who allowed documents and witness statements to be signed with an electronic signature, police services which allow civilians to do the jobs specifically reserved for proper police officers in law, failure to respond to the performance of possibly defective equipment (like the 'Dodgy-Scope), failure to repay those wrongly fined for certain offences. Do I need to go on.
We also have the nremoval of the right to silence in certain motoring offences, although it seems that this only applies if you are unaware of your rights to begin with.
Yes, my view is that we are moving towards a new dark age of a totally controlled society, which, in the words of Winston wil be 'made longer and more protracted by the lights of perverted science'.[/quote]

Just read an article this morning on the BBC website on Iran where two iranians had been locked up for 'Blogging'. in otherwards expressing there thoughts about the state. They are currently imprisioned in solitary confinement and have been subjected to torture over the period of their imprisonment. god only knows when or if they will be released. Now what were you saying about the UK being a police state

JJ[/quote]

Precisely, JJ, you reinforce my point. In Iran they have crossed the line of acceptability and even you can clearly see this.
In addition, the point Max and I have made is that we are undoubtedly moving towards the type of society in which the previously held freedoms are being very slowly eroded because, we are told, it is good for us. CCTV now watches a lot of what we do and we are told this is to reduce crime, only that it is not reducing crime. Crime, particularly drug related offences, are increasing faster than the police can control them, even with this new technology.
It's the constant nibbling away at what, in my 64 years, I have regarded as my rights as an Englishman. Typically, my right to free speech, my right to be regarded as innocent until proven guilty, my right to silence if accused of an offence, my right to be treated equally under the law and not be regarded as a pariah because I am part of Middle England (i.e., relatively well-off financially, relatively successful in business, a home owner and a soon-to-be old-age pensioner). All the rights seem to be directed towards the minority groups. For example, a 'cleric' in London can mouth off the most vile racist incitements to violence and yet continue to live here and receive benefits. If I, however, go through a cash-camera and decide that I want to exercise a right to silence I have no rights whatsoever and the weight of the law may descend on me, unlike our 'cleric' friend, against whom no action is ever taken.
So, the new technology is directed at controlling those like me, middle England, who have always paid our taxes, contributed to our society from birth and who are easy targets for 'dumbing-down' by these socialist control freaks whom you serve so enthusiastically.
You just don't see it, do you. Do you really believe that the individual has the same personal freedoms as he/she had in 1955?
What's more, it is getting worse and will do so as long as we have this 'spin' expounding excuse for a proper government.
To think that you seem to personally actually believe the 'spin' from Tony B'liar and his lickspittles. Weapons of Mass Destruction? Better health service? Tough on crime & the causes of crime? Smaller school classes? Speed cameras save lives? Tough on Terrorism (after giving in to all the IRA Demands). All political b******t I'm afraid.
Did you know that I can't even transfer £3000 of my own money, on which I've paid tax, to my friend in the USA without being suspected of money laundering and being investigated by some faceless organisation.
JJ, I might not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it to the ultimate degree.
'My' country is being screwed by the control freaks, and for my own good I'm told. Leave it out! Yes, I am disillusioned, but it's still my country and why should I move abroad. I'll stay and fight this from within. I will never carry an identity card with a micro-chip, that's for sure. I will never accept a speed-camera fixed penalty without a major fight, I will continue to say what I feel out loud. Those are my perceived rights. If society feels I should be in prison, then I'll join those of like mind when the time comes.
As Patrick McGoohan said "I am not a number!".[/quote]

I haven't been on this site for some time and have just come across this post.

Well said sir, you speak my language! Apart from the "..won't leave the country..." bit. I'm so truly p1ssed off by the way this country is going that I am prepared to move my whole family somewhere else; a major upheaval but I'm being driven to it more and more by those mundane control freaks we have in positions of influence.

In his last speech to Parliament, MP Brian Sedgemore yesterday gave this stunning tirade against what he sees as, you got it, the rise of the police state:

If Labour's own ministers are thinking like this, is it any surprise the rest of us do? You can see his performance here.

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Carl Prescott

Anybody been along the A590 lately??? Wow laden with Volvo T5's motorbikes Skoda Octavias and unmarked cars, reducing burgalries? NO, catching murderers? NO Illegal immigrants? NO, responding to requests from the public for help? NO

Just letting the unmarked white van with the two cameras in the back check your tax disc, and then half of the Cumbria traffic fleet sets out in pursuit of you!!

Any Cumbria Police Officers on here, does it really take all these vehicles and officers to catch the odd motorist ??

Fatals go up in Cumbria whilst tax dodgers go down, who says it's not about the "money"

EFC

Where will it all end?

http://www.aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf

(Needs "Flash" to be installed. Many thanks to Cooperman for sending the link to me...)

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

I take it you are talking about the one day last week where we ran an ANPR operation along the A590.

As a direct result of the operation we found a few 'odd' motorists.

• The tax and insurance dodgers also had dodgy tyres and numerous other 'construction and use' offences and were reported for same.
• A vulnerable missing person was found.
• A disqualified driver was taken off the road.
• HGVs who are known to regularly commit driver's hours offences were caught and reported for same.
• A drug supplier was stopped and checked and his activities disrupted, and his untaxed and uninsured vehicle removed from the road.
• Outside the operation, but as a result of the presence of police patrols another driver who was wanted was arrested..

Oh and we did find a few tax dodgers.



And the point of your post was..........?

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

The odd day??

My wife and I are up and down the A590 two or three times a day, every day, and in the last fortnight we reckon that the van and all the cars etc have been there for 5 or 6 days not just 1

But then as you say not a bad haul for five or six days work.

PS I hope you gave the suspected drug dealer a good doing over


EFC

WOW!

I'll check when I get in on Wednesday, but that day was the only one I worked on the ANPR in the last fortnight.

Those were the results for the day I worked. If there were more, which I don't doubt, I have not been involved (either leave or nights).

The point I was initially trying to query was, Is this a policing method you disapprove of, despite it having the added bonus of providing high visibility policing on the A590, a road which has caused us some serious headaches when it comes to KSIs?

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

The ANPR does seem to get real results, unlike the cash-cameras. It is heavy on manpower, but if the resource exists then why not use it - just maybe not every day.
The only problem I can see is if someone sees, say, 4 police vehicles plus the van operating one afternoon, thats c.9 officers, then they get burgled that night and no rapid police response is forthcoming, there will be an element of poor perception from the average public. But of course, that won't happen, will it?
At least it's nothing to do with the SG, which is a relief.

P'raps in Luton or St Albans, Cooperman, but unlikely up here. We'll have generally 3 or 4 vehicles, single crewed, with a 'civvie' operator. In our area ANPR ops are not regular, they usually run for one day only, but perhaps they might have been able to stretch this particular op to a few days.


Again it's down to manpower and stretching limited resources, but you can be assured, (perhaps not 'rest' assured) that any bobby or any shift of bobbies, if they get a 'intruder on' call, will respond as immediately as they possibly can.

I've heard that we might be getting ANPR in one patrol car per traffic group (5 in Cumbria), which would be primarily involved in core road policing duties, but have the facility to respond to the 'hits' from the camera.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Hi Ian,

How did you know I was born in St. Albans and married in Luton? Took my flying training at what is now Luton Int. airport, but it was a grass airfield in those days!
I saw an ANPR on the A1 near Huntingdon and there were 5 proper traffic cars, all double manned, plus the van. That's 11 personnel all afternoon. However, I believe the ANPR is a very effective way of catching criminals, so we can't complain, just so long as the requirements for rapid response to other crimes doesn't suffer. What I did object to, several years ago was when that same constabulary (Cambs) told my wife, after her shop suffered its 18 broken window in 15 months, that there was little they could do as her shop was 'in the wrong place' (i.e. the centre of St.Neots) and they were short of resources. A call to a personal friend of mine who was a Home Office Minister at the time resulted in a call to my wife from the Cambs. Chief Constable followed by a personal visit from a Chief Super. They later caught a couple of 'yobbos' who did receive a 'yoof custody' sentance.
It is a matter of perception as to the acceptability of that level of resource. If the attitude when burgled is 'we'll give you a crime number, but we have no-one available to attend', then the ANPR may well be perceived as a waste of resource. I'm sure that's not the case in your lot, Ian.

Agree with Ian H on this you complain that its all about Speed cameras and that we can do nothing else However we work closely with the ANPR organisation providing them with sites to operate from. Our organisation can not directly target other offences but by working in cooporation within the police and other departments we do play our part.

JJ

Just a guess, but the 'Cooperman' who posts on PH and writes very much in your style is from Bedfordshire, so I named the only two places I know in that area.



There is not the requirement for that level of manpower on our normal ANPR operations. Once our 'core' cover is satisfied, we'll try to engage remaining patrols proactively in these kind of operations, or other such operations. Operation 'Focus' trying to deal effectively ith weekend bikers is gearing up to start for the summer season, operation 'Abolish'started today, to use intelligence and proactive patrol to attempt to reduce drink driving. We've recently had a mobile phone operation, and are constantly trying to think of new ideas for boy racers.
Having said all that, if a job comes in where time is of the essence, ie a burglar on premises, an injury RTC, etc we'll bin the op and have all hands on deck. Hell, I've even seen my partner lose his place in the MacDonald's queue .



I owned a newsagent/general store in Greenock strathclyde for 8 years before joining the police. I saw more there than I have in my 14 years as a police officer. Additionally I was victim to two armed robberies and about 20 breaks or attempt breaks. Despite the reputation that Greenock had then as a punishment station, the local Bib were excellent. I had nothing but praise for them, even if some of their tactics were a little 'old school' .
But they used to come into the shop for a brew every day, so that probably had a similar 'carrot type' effect in the same way as your influential friends wielded the 'stick' to get the job done.



I'm right there with you, we have to win the battle. EFC obviously has a misconception (in my mind) about the purpose of ANPR. It's my job, and that of my colleagues to try to convince him/her otherwise.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Hi Ian,
You certainly established my roots very quickly! That's why you do the job you do, maybe.
ANPR is obviously a very effective tool and it does attack those who deserve to be attacked, unlike the speed/cash-cameras. However, to ANPR ops do require quite a high human resource and it's the perception of this by Mr. Average, who probably thinks the ANPR van is a speed cam van, which causes the problem.
For example, before I moved to Cambs, where I now reside, I lived on the Beds/Herts border, just in Beds. One evening I noticed my neighbours alarm go off and they were on holiday at the time. My wife called the police whilst I went to investigate. Perhaps I was unwise in doing this as I must have gone in the back door whilst the burglar was climbing out of the bedroom window (it's a bungalow). The police response took just over 50 minutes and when they arrived it was two young WPC's, one of whom was a 'Special'.
Two days later there was a major traffic check on the Shefford by-pass, which is 3 miles from where I live. This involved two dual-manned cars and two traffic bikes. Apparently they were checking for tax discs and unroadworthy vehicles, etc.
That's what I mean about perception. At that time burglary and thefts from outbuildings was a problem in the South Beds villages, but the Beds Constabulary believed that vehicle checks rated higher in their duties. Very bad PR.

It seems not everybody is onboard the speed camera gravy boat!
This report from 2003 highlights some differences of opinion!
http://www.thisisthelakedistrict.co.uk/archive/display.var.294156.0.slow_take_up_for_pilot_speed_gun_trials.php



Well at least Sgt. Allison had his head screwed on! Does he still have his job I wonder?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!