Safe Speed Forums

Just a couple of quick points:
The lights that I mentioned relate to your headlights - NOT street lights ! and at daybreak I assume that she still had her's on.

The wet patch you mention would tell me this maybe ICE and the surrounding conditions WARN of impending possibilities of ice.

The problem is that you cannot drive about at 10mph everywhere but you can always scan the road ahead and if ice is possible, then you scan the most distant part of the road and then back to the front of your car - grab a rear view etc etc, and then back to the furthest point, if anything grabs your attention, you are immediately off the throttle, brake while you are on the safe road in front of you UNTIL you KNOW the problem is resolved as safe or not then you continue to slow and even stop if necessary or ID as ice or ?

Can you tell us as much as you feel able about her incident.

Can anything better a really thinking, observant (etc) driver, EVER over any roadside gadget? If 'ice signs' are just a part of the furniture then would not ice sensor markers tel us?

Will we end up with coloured road surfaces that change colour in icy conditions - then we can 'read' the road for temp. A road strip down one side would be good BUT useless if the centre of the road is icy and you do not have a LSD. ? (limited slip diff).

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Indeed they are. I will give credit where credit's due, The SCP website also has some useful information on "driving in bad/freezing weather"





Tell us about it Complete pillocks!







Unfortunately - I agree


We've been arguing for this as constant .. along with MORE WELL TRAINED police who operate to a standardised ceiling as regards discretion - lest we convey the idea "we only want 'em cos we think they'll let us off".

No. We want them because they have a certain unspoken discipline just because they are seen to be around.

But I thought there were plans to shake up the pratical test with some of the old required elements being tested - but more at "random". The driver then has to drive if on a normal drive for the remaining 20 mins.

It still does not cover some essentials though




I agree .. we need more facilities. We also need to find a way to motivate folk to learn as constant.. take a pride in their driving.

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If cold and looking dryish before seeing this sheen in the distance then yes.

If it was a sunny day as on the day of the Rhyl tragedy - then it may not be quite so obvious to the naked eye.




How odd that we always swing back to C O A S T values. especially with regard to Concentrate .. Observe and Anticipate based on the Observations.

Look .. our COAST nagging can save lives.

Problem with black ice on a damp road which has a further COLD spot due to macro-climate .. you do not spot till too late - you know you are on it when you feel loss of traction. Easy to say - but keep calm and steer out calmly




We have noticed some censors. Many Swiss roads have these too. But again we are back to COAST to notice the signs systematically and act upon them as we do with speed lollies


Swiss mix glass into the tarmac. They use it on their motorways. They think this helped them get to number one spot on motorway safety in 2007. They fell to second place in 2008 apparently after some incidents at Chur and St Gotthardt.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Just a few thoughts on this:

Firstly, Sam and Ben, I'm so sorry to hear of your daughter's accident. like others on here, my best wishes to you all.

Secondly, Although there is a huge amount of good advice on "best practice" for drivers from what I've read in this thread so far, I think its worth adding that (at least in my view) there are PLENTY of opportunities for even the best trained drivers to be caught out. This winter, not half a mile from my house, I was driving along an "A" road here in Cumbria. A well-gritted road and not particularly high altitude. Up ahead I saw someone flagging traffic down so I slowed, and then stopped. Just a bit further round the bend, there was a car in the grass bank. Mercifully, no serious injuries, but the road for about 20 yards either side of the incident was as slippy as anything I've ever stood on! I'm talking SO slippy that people were struggling to stand upright on it - never mind drive!!! I don't know what happened but those 40 yards of road weren't gritted. Whether it was a point where one gritting crew finished and another started or whether there was a blockage on the gritter or what... I simply don't know, but in all honesty, I don't think I would have spotted it until it was too late either! I am by no means the best driver in the world, but I think that if we're brutally honest with ourselves, most of us have had "there but for the grace of God" moments! I think the people in that car had a "reasonable expectation" that the road would have been gritted all-over, with no bits missed out! I had a similar experience a few years ago, this time on a very minor road that wasn't gritted. Up ahead I saw a police car and the copper was out having a word with a motorist up in front. As he moved away from the car, he slipped over and slid a good few feet on his backside! Here, my finely-honed driving skills kicked in and I quickly deduced that maybe he was warning motorists of a slippy section ahead! He wasn't kidding! there were no fewer than 6 cars in the next half mile that were embedded in the scenery! Again, had I not seen him fall over, I think there might have been 7! OK, I knew it was icy and I knew we were coming to a downhill bit with lots of overhanging trees, so I imagined it would be slippier there, but in all honesty, I probably wouldn't have reduced speed as much as I did - which would have just meant that I might have had a fairly minor encounter with the scenery instead of crawling through that section at less than 10MPH.

Thirdly, I think that the extremely isolated driving environment of a modern car might also be partly to blame. We're cosy, comfy and warm in our cars and they tend not to give us particularly good signals as to what's happening at the tyre contact patch. They're also spectacularly capable compared to cars of (say) 30 years ago. The disadvantage of this is that they are extremely reassuring to drive - right up until the moment they "let go" - at which point you're usually going a good deal faster than you would have been in a car of 30 years ago!

My only big "off" on ice was funny enough over 30 years ago just after passing my test by a couple of years. I was driving a rear wheel drive escort along a straight road that was exposed to the elements on the nearside. Doing about 40ish I suddenly found myself going to the right side ways as if given a push to the passenger door, It might have been a strong gust of wind, or maybe I was accelerating, although it wasn't a back end drift.
Anyway the long and short of it I spun either by over correcting , (I might have tried handbraking to try and spin it on it's axis)or hitting offside kerb.(there's not much you can do when just going across the road parallel to the kerb.) and ended up backwards in ditch on the nearside. Again although there was no signs of icy conditions the road was near impossible to stand on with black ice. I was lucky it was about midnight and no other traffic around to collide with.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

ISTR that in the Highlands of Scotland they have snow gates on the high passes so that "road closed" really means what ir says.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Many thanks. I hope that my analytical approach won't drive readers mad, but feel it's important to qualify (via the Forum's expertise) expressed views. Not trying to be a know-all, but these are my findings

1)'high routes'..........I need to confirm with a meteorolgist, but I believe that icing favours relatively elevated locations

2)'ROAD LIABLE TO ICING" warning sign..........I have challenged my County Council about future warnings for winter on 2, mobile roadside booms. Response was ....Booms to provide a range of travel information and safety messages to support safer driving . Winter safety has not been rated as a predominant factor at this stage.

3) 'When routes become treacherous, the local radio stations broadcast warnings - and in some cases, routes are CLOSED'..........Perhaps better delivered to the target using on-site mobile roadside booms?

4)'leaflets - handed out in filling stations'/ web site with winter driving advice .......Need to count the number of leaflets taken by the driving public. Count the hits on the website. Then review the success of these measures?

5)'many sites liable to black ice only become apparent on the day when somebody has an off'..........Is history of collisions for these sites analysed? Are KIS statistics too important, given the statistical values of, e.g., 'Heinrich (1931) - for EACH major accident there are likely to be 29 minor injuries and 300 non injury incidents.
Bird (1969) - for EACH serious injury there are likely to be 10 minor injuries, 30 property damage accidents and 600 non injury accidents?

6) 'cannot foresee a time when money is made available to have somebody check up on remote locations for black ice' ..........spot checking of such locations is part of my Council's Winter Service Plan. Also, trials of in-car detectors have started (2008) in the US. They've figured out, I think, that every driven car is an essential source of realtime weather data. The idea being that the data will be communicated to a centralised, diagnostic facility, analysed, then returned to drivers as expert opinion of road conditions.

Can you tell us as much as you feel able about her incident.[/quote]

May I refer you to my May 190 posting, please?

Where do those 6 collisions appear on the records? I understand that, from recently, police will no longer record collisions which don't result in injury.

I really feel that your recount of personal experiences illustrates the need for a root & branch review of winter-driving safety . This is not to sidestep the clear responsibility of every driver to make judicious, sensible decisions prior to and during a winter journey. Just confirm that they ARE equipped to do that.

Once again, thank you

Been driving about 25 years now. I tend to cover a fair few miles - about 25,000 / year, partly due to the relative isolation of where I live and partly because I tend to travel a fair bit for work anyway.

I don't know where those half a dozen cars' crash locations would have been recorded. They were all pretty low-speed impacts, so unlikely there were any injuries. I think ( but couldn't swear to the fact!) that it was the little unclassified road that cuts the corner off the A595 between Broad Oak (just after Waberthwaite) and Broadgate - just before joining the A595 again. The slippy patch was just before Broadgate.

Thank you Mole. I think the point that I was trying to get to is the probability, per mile driven, of encountering the kinds of icy-collision or non-injurious crash during a 'driving life'

That is the substance of the types of statistical method put, separately, by Bird and Bernstein (earlier posting).

If you've recounted your lifetime, icy-collision experiences, then I am even more concerned about the ability of less experienced drivers to recognise such risky conditions.

Is it OK to use this posting to propose a poll of Forum users' icy-collision or non-injurious experiences, please? Could I extend significance of sucha poll by asking users to recount , also, the experiences of others?

I think that the DVLA paperwork which is sent to every driver, every year could prove to be the most effective way of delivering essential information about all manner of driving matters, including new rules and regulations.

A simple tear off slip to be sent back with the remittance or a question at the post office should confirm that the recipient HAS read the information enclosed.

As to the leaflets in filling stations, I used to work in one, and I found locals took them routinely.
Being in Cumbria, we have a huge number of tourists - but I tried to ensure that drivers were handed a leaflet when I was on duty, and I actively engaged customers in discussions on safety when able to do so.
This is an avenue which could be explored - messages on till receipts perhaps, and most of all, those public information films we used to get on TV should be brought back.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Thank you, Ernest.

I would strongly support the participative approach in your ...... 'simple tear off slip....'confirm that the recipient HAS read the information enclosed'

That engages the driving public and is much closer to getting them to see that their responsibilities cannot be passed off to others. Anything more passive than that I'm not sure about.

What do you think about the chances that such a suggestion would be seriously considered, and by which agency, please?

Also, could I ask you for your experiences of icy-road incidents, please (my earlier posting, today)?

I thoroughly agree and promote the skills and training methods to better and safer driving, but with many things in life costing SO much many cannot afford it even if it became a rule. I know a friend that got some skid control training and just 2wks later had a skid that she controlled and drove away from that she was convinced prior to the training she would have not *known* what to do. She was confused about 'turing-into' the skid. She had heard an item on the radio that had got her thinking.
In many cases, further driver / rider training is done because the driver / rider WANTS to know something (or learn as they have received a scare), or their boss demands more employee training.
Taking a car on a race-circuit (and similar) will teach you masses about the handling of a car. MANY people never even consider car handling when buying a car these days. Many don't understand the first thing about it.
I would love to see a rule though that did say that it was STRONGLY encouraged that within the first yr or two (research needed here) all drivers were to have completed successfully a skid control course. (Skid control helps you in all your driving life experiences. )

Cars to some degree have become, soft and cushy or just A to B-mobiles, and we are distanced from the mechanics and performance.

Loss of control / billion miles driven I suspect would be the stat.
Insurance companies will have figures for this - not sure if we can get to it, but it would be great to though.

Some people might never experience a skid, but it depends on where you live and your route to work, lifestyle ... etc., etc.
Sudden and heavy rain after a longish dry period make the roads very slippery, and can see many people sliding about.
See it is a skill for the Driver's Toolbox to be used not just for winter but handling your car better, inc knowing more about handling and your car's abilities and the driver's abilities. All skills learned help a driver/rider to cops better all year.
I appreciate that the quest that you are on reflects our own but the skills need to be there for every possibility, not just winter. Starting with winter may help to promote Companies to sponsor etc as it is an obvious need.

Got any links to this ?
Is it OK to use this posting to propose a poll of Forum users' icy-collision or non-injurious experiences, please? Could I extend significance of such a poll by asking users to recount , also, the experiences of others?[/quote]
[quote="samandben"]No - BUT if you go to HERE, we have a POLL forum for just such a purpose. Follow the little guide, if you are unsure - ask me or the other Moderators (green) /Admins (all people labeled in red). Once a vote is placed then you can see the percentage answers. Look at a few to get the idea ...

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

There will never be a time that ALL drivers / riders can ever be totally prepared for every eventuality, but we can aim for this. Driver's must take responsibility when they drive, and learn all they can and try to expand that (within reason) to become a good driver. Encouragement to become a better driver (as has been the case) MUST be encouraged.
The same encouragement is true especially for 'summer driver's' too. They drive to and from work then 'get out more' in the summer and seem (suspected) clueless on 'how to drive', especially true when they do NOT realise that their long (longer than normal), drives have made them tired, and less 'aware'. Add this to towing caravans (or other) and unless we have been encouraging driver's to do better and learn more we cannot expect better abilities from them.
I would hate to see a dumbing down (as is happening) to the lowest 'common denominator driver skills' as this will make the roads highly dangerous.

Well they do to some degree, although they are encouraging far more online references now-a-days. (Not as good).

But to what advantage ? The tear off slip is pointless though as many would either sign and tear off & send back and maybe read later, I know that I would not find the time immediately, to read something that came through the mail, but if there was something important to send off then I would sign & send off, after glancing over it and read later. What do DVLA do with ALL the returned slips ? What good does a confirmation do? If it is to attempt to 'do the right thing' as soon as, it leaks they throw them away, why get everyone to waste a stamp ? They could look at you going on line and registering and then checking boxes of read info but UNLESS there is a resulting punishment or disadvantage, what IS the 'point'.
We have to look at the psychology, that is at the heart of the 'desire' to be a better driver, and so the desire to read the sent material. That organisation that has sent the info FIRST, MUST be respected, and so that the info provided WILL be good and helpful. Forcing people to read something will not teach people anything. Someone who reads, bins, signs & sends will unlikely have learned or recall anything read.
Good pictures are better at getting messages across to a wider audience too.
Good on you
Good posters too is I think better than the till receipts BUT a few hints and tips might go down well. You do see the odd thing at fuel stations or on the pump itself, reminders of things to 'buy' usually BUT helpful and important things. (e.g. Screen wash) ...
I actively promote the idea of the return to the public info films, and we have seen some - not very good one's, but I guess they are a start BUT when they (in some cases), are ongoing to the political propaganda spewed out, than facts and truth, it is sadly alarming, than educational !
Leaflets are put out esp by AA (and perhaps RAC) and some Highways Agencies plus some Councils do too. I still see them locally along with expensive numbers to call for weather updates !
The true fundamental that IS going wrong at the moment is that there is precious little care for Road Safety shown by this current Government. If the agencies that are placed to help : DVLA, Dft, TfL, TRL, etc are not TOLD to do things no amount of yelling at them will make them change their minds - hence why, Safe Speed is here, telling them, that not only are Speed Cameras NOT in the interests of Road Safety (and I am quite sure they know this) but that driver responsibility, knowledge, skills and ability all need to be encouraged and improved for ALL their driving life.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Sorry are you referring to the press article? That says next to nothing about the driver's prior knowledge of the road or what she thought etc, etc.
I would like to be analytical here, but I am concerned about your sensitivity to this, especially, as I am sure others here are too. We would not wish to step out of line, but do like to know as many of the facts as possible, as this can help us fully understand the incident better. Through this knowledge we can try to analyse and then learn, and also relate it to current procedures, our own experiences too. If there room for improvement, how that maybe achieved and if current procedures need to be changed or improved then we will try to look at this.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Sorry. I'll try to give as much info as I can.:

1)Daughter's prior knowledge of the road..................perhaps drove this road 2 to 3 times a year, mostly not during winter, to get to the motorway to drive long-distance. Licence-holder for 17 years. No prior collisions/accidents.
2)I think that this her first experience of skidding and travelling in very cold conditions
3)Dry, clear for the majority of the 20+ mile journey. No prior indicators of risk. Dawn. Sunny/ "lovely morning" conditions later in the journey. Came round a long bend and had about a 5 second warning of a change signified by an extraordinarily "wet looking" road surface. Decision was, don't know what that is so proceed at slowing speed. Steering wheel violently wrested from hands as hit the edge of the 'wet' surface and not strong enough to bring the wheel back. Said to other occupants "we'll be OK." Seemingly slow spinning skid. Car left the road backwards down into a ditch after hitting verge-gravel, and heading downhill towards fields below. Car stopped violently as it's boot smashed into a young tree.
4)Travelling @ between 50 & 60 mph.
5)Major A road, salted routinely as it is a major route. Road salted once, the previous afternoon.
6) No rain. Air temperature @ 0 to 2C, having dropped from 8C in the preceding 5 days. No rain over the same period. Relative Humidity on rapid increase from previous week's low=very low at journey start (71deg) into 84deg 15 miles further on from the crash site. Road surface temperature minus 3C to minus 4C (readings from embedded detectors some miles either side of/ and at lower altitude than, the crash site), dropping rapidly over the preceding week from a December high of 9C
7) Emergency personnel slipping and falling over at the scene. Emergency vehicles skidding.
8) Crash site is at the highest, moorland point of the 30+mile long road. Sheltered to the South by high trees and to the North by banking.
9) Winter tyres not fitted. Car a 1990 saloon without frost-warning system. Full tank/ heavy with fuel.

Please ask me for more specific info if it will help

My apologies for digging, but you said that it was black ice that she hit, the symptoms you describe are for hitting surface water. There would be no wheel wresting hitting black ice - the wheel would go light and the car would fail to respond. The actions you describe - coming off power and not braking is exactly the right thing to do. Can you explain more what happened as this seems to be a little contradictory. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying?

In reply to Ernest whose views I agree with.






My wife Wildy Cat is more able than me on this. We chat as husband and wife do.

I am playing around whilst she fusses over supper.


But yes. High altitude means COLD SPOTS and FREEZE,



They go off the stats. As winters have been mild for a while .. cold snaps? Not frequent enough.



USE ALL available media as the Swiss etc do. My wife's both loyal and critical to her homeland. We both see its good points though



Maybe. They did this with Clunk Click/Green Cross with Dave Prowse once upon a time in the past Check Green Cross Code Man?Tufty websites.



The problem .. you do not see it. It looks damp till you HIT on it.

We can educate.. but folk do not want to know. You only need read t he complacently outraged replies to our COAST advice to work that one out




As said ..via my wife and IG [=- tell tale signs exist but it all relies back to COAST all the same. OK SAC/SCP/DIS mark on this. I happen to think they are right to focus on these essentials.

The Jags and father in laws S class ' Merc inform of much we need to know. I will say that Jag?Merc sensors are accurate. But others drive much older cars which do not give this information. I think we must insist this becomes mandatory.

We also need to be aware that all are not as skilled as me and my wife by sole virtue of our own motivation towards "pride in our driving skills"

We look at the road ahead.. if very cold but "wet look" we assume "black ice" and plan the COAST accordingly,

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

sam .. per post./ you confirm what my wild wife and Claire already said.

Your daughter has nothing to reproach herself over. I know what she will be feeling. Your job? EASE her over this, I know what I am talking about. I had to deal with a very agitated and depressed Wild feline some time back, My own wife. We over-rode our black hole by trying to understand it . .. I thus know all you are going through and want to assure you that I know and understand all you feel .. but from own personal stance.. suggest you meet/address all with a stoic "take on chin".. and bide time for justice,

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.