Safe Speed Forums

Sorry Guys and Gals, but I can only conclude that the racing driver was right and that skidpan-practice will give you prior experience of something that you're unlikely to want to try to control.

Trying not to get cynical here, but at what sorts of speed are vehicles driven in skidpan-training? Compared with the..... 'drive with care/according to the conditions'...... sorts of speed on a winter A road?

As Claire said, a skidpan course is great fun AND extremely instructive, but you're right (I feel!) to retain a degre of cynicism. I've been on a couple of "low budget" ones where you're unlikely to exceed 20MPH. They're OK up to a point - get you used to the sensation of a car not going the way you wanted it to, but once you've mastered the various techniques for sorting it out, I think the drawback is that they can make you feel a bit "invincible" - until you find a patch like your daughter had the misfortune to come across!

There are better courses available where you get up to pretty high speeds - 50 or so, but there are all sorts of different ways of simulating skids and not all of them are (in my view) especially realistic. Also, you pretty much always end up with the problem that you just end up learning about the handling characteristics of the car they're using for training - which may or may not be similar to those of the car you eventually end up driving when the dreaded event happens!

I think the discussion has brought out some very useful points - not least that every skid tends to be that little bit different depending on any combination of a pretty huge number of factors. More modern cars with fancy electronic stability controls behave quite differently to cars of 20 years ago (even 10 years ago in some cases)! To make matters worse, proper black ice is just sooooo slippy that once the car has spun more than about 45 degrees to the direction of travel, I think there's very little that any but the most talented driver can do.

I think if it were me trying to minimise the chances of this happening again, I'd probably place more value on any training that would help me spot the ice (or chance of it) BEFORE the situation developed rather than try to learn to control a car once it had. I'd certainly think hard about a set of wheels with decent winter tyres on them. We don't really use them here in the UK, but they're routinely used on the continent and they do make a surprising difference. I'm not talking studded ice tyres, just winter tyres. When driving on suspected icy roads, I'd (at the risk of stating the obvious!) keep the speed down and (on the safer straight bits with no traffic near me) try provoking the car a bit (either tipping the brakes or accelerating) every so often to see how hard it was to break traction periodically. Finally, if funds permitted, I'd get a car with electronic stability control, a decent EuroNCAP crash rating and plenty of side and curtain airbags!

The fact that is was cold and icy enough for her to have to clear her windscreen, and that location was in an urban area, she then traveled out of town. Urban areas are always 'warmer' so by traveling out into the more rural areas it is 'known' that there will be a drop in temperature and pockets of potentially very cold / freezing areas e.g. especially one's that are in the shade and do not receive much or any direct sunshine, that helps to warm up the ground and air temperature. She could probably 'see' her breath in the air, which is also an indicator that it is very cold.

I was referring to the thought that the passenger (your wife) might influence the driver to the point of canceling the trip - I appreciate that you see this as that the passenger 'felt' safe but she was not receiving much feed back from the car controls. The driver is far better placed to make these judgments more accurately.
The Lizard Brain mentality is a fascinating area of people's behaviour - the survival instincts and learned 'innate' behaviours in our more modern world.
Responsibility is something that can be coupled with good attitude, good attitude tells us that we can always, do and learn better, so that our abilities and skills can be improved. I was not specifically saying anything about your daughter, it is principals that we are exploring here.

My point here is that whilst we can check the weather it is rare that we all go to the trouble of check more precise data. I have called the gritting 'office' to find which roads they have gritted and when, to know how much time I may need to allow for my journey (allowing to travel very slowly), as well as keeping a very close eye on the weather on TV and online to also give me all the info that I can 'normally' find.
Have done this. [quote"samandben"]How will that help you, please?[/quote]
Well the more info that we can 'see' the better we can see what might be done, by engineering the road better to the specific bend, where the ice might have been. The road warnings that might be 'there' but not observed, e.g. hedges that might have frosted grass on one bank that is in the sun's shade. Overall to help ascertain where if any, improvements might be required and to try to understand the accident processes. If you are not happy with this then I totally respect that decision.

After the first 'spin' that took them onto the oncoming lane was the second set of spinning, in a clockwise direction ? She didn't hit the opposite roadside verge ?

This is just my experience (and calls to local authorities) in my local area, but the routes are so long up here by the time they have gone one way they need to go back and start again and especially, if they are also removing snow, a little quicker if they are 'just gritting' but then they travel down more roads on a set priority rota. You can call and ask your local authority which are the priority routes, they are usually the one's to important locations eg Hospitals / Emergency Services / MOD etc ... then schools, and so on ...

Interesting article - will read more thoroughly later. But it shows their predictions are close to reality in that location on that day etc ...
The info that I led to does show a macro climate as opposed to micro ! There even being small even more local environments beyond this ... as shown. (To be precise! )

But that morning was cold enough for some indicators (windscreen ice, in urban area), that there night be a problem ...? Then every shaded area, bridge, 'open countryside' areas, tree covered roads, shaded road sections, farm entrances, curved up/down hill bends (water goes across at angle), corner (slow in 'fast' out to ensure good obs during approach and whilst apexing bend for confirmed 'clear road' driving conditions). All these points and more need to be considered on every drive, in summer for mud, loose grit, damp patches, and in winter, damp leafy, icy conditions ...

Well the HC is being overall specific as a rule and the IAM are being 'informative'.
Are you saying that people are unaware that Black Ice is 'black' / invisible ? Surely we have all stepped onto ice we hadn't 'seen' at some point in our lives ? Surely we know ice is not always easy to see? The HC is trying to say go carefully, they cannot possibly ever be, so specific that they can describe every circumstance, can they? So they select words the cover and overall rule to give good advice, and every word 'counts'. What do you not think that it covers?
The IAM article didn't say it was black/invisible ... just "Black ice occurs in patches, so it is very easy to be lulled into a false sense of security after driving for some miles along a road that seems normal." IAM link.Do you prefer this because it is a little more descriptive?

For sure I will travel less and many do if the roads are potentially icy and then I'll travel at the best times that I can (chk grit lorry times and routes etc) to try to always ensure that I keep myself safe. I cannot say that I have ever got enough experience to always cope with every scenario, but I try to give myself the best experiences that I can, use caution and obtain the best skills possible and I am always on the look out to learn more. I do analyse things though and will do so, thoroughly before I might decide to add that snippet or advice into my 'Driver's Toolkit' of skills and knowledge.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

You are going down the road of too specific here and too much theory. I can 'hear' your concerns through your words and this comes from lack of experience and I understand this. Why not see if you can attend a course even as an observer although far better to have a go it really IS good fun. Yes it does give confidence too and for most that is what they need.
I agree with Mole there are many variable Skid Pan Courses and different types of equipment used which provides different outcomes and so different training.
BUT if it was have some or none I'd go with some every time !
If they ONLY had FWD (front wheel drive) or RWD then I'd rather have some than none.
For example :
A friend called me said that she couldn't recall which way 'turning into the skid' was. She drives a FWD car.
SO
We took her out in our RWD car on the empty airfield with about 1" to 2" of snow
We gradually got her to start to 'feel' the car loose grip. She was very very nervous even though there was nothing to hit !
She gradually got faster and faster and built up a large amount of confidence. We taught her a few things over some hours.
We even did straight line 'runs' and J turns ...

She went home knowing what it felt like, when the grip was 'going and gone', how that car behaved, what she should do with FWD (we didn't have a FWD car to hand (& no her car wasn't available!). We told her what she needed to do with her car and what was likely to be expected ...
She was much more confident in her own ability, and aware of the differences and we advised her to get her car on the snow and try it out.
THEN
TWO weeks later she calls and says :
I had a skid - BUT I told my daughter to hold tight, she explained, as her car slid on the ice covered snow, she said that she felt the steering grip go, but she was able to turn into the skid, and controlled the car ENOUGH to not hit the roadside bank, but to get her back in a straight-ish line and drive on with her journey.
She then said : "IF I hadn't taken that time understanding, then I couldn't have driven out of that, I would have panicked and I am really sure that I would have hit the bank !"

I think the confidence in knowing what to do, and the feeling of what it's LIKE, when things start to go wrong is a big part of being able to identify the problem and knowing what to do, can and does help.
'Samandben' please book a skid pan course, please go on it. One day you may need it, enough sadness has befallen you.

You may find it just helps you to control and balance your car a lot better, that in itself can prevent a skid in the first place.
The more experience that you can gain the better knowledge you have to use at your discretion. You may only have a split second to react, you need to make that moment count.

Even if you take only SOME knowledge the fact that you have the basic experience of a skid - or a lifetime's worth of skidding in just one day, helps you to know and feel what to do.
I would NOT worry about being over-confident, although I agree that a few people can get this way BUT their attitude perhaps was wrong in the first place, it was not the course that made them so. Take away from every life experience something that you can use, no matter how small or large. Find the bits that CAN help you grow and learn.

I suppose we could start asking who has been on what S/P course, and what they did, and what people felt about the courses.

Training is good and it can help when things go wrong, but I firmly believe in being hawk like observant, and learn everything from your surroundings, let that guide you too.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I really can't see your point here!!

The quote that "will give you prior experience of something that you're unlikely to want to try to control." is TOTAL rubbish...why would you NOT want to control a skid?? The results of not controlling it, as you know, could be fatal.

As for the speeds of skid pan training, again that is irrelevent, learning to control a skid at low speeds will give you the knowledge of what actions to take to TRY and control a skid at any speed, you may not be succesful at trying to pull out of a higher speed skid but all the same you may be able to control it enough to lessen the danger and consequential impact speed.

In my opinion...."giving up , taking your hands of the wheel and hoping for the best"... when entering a skid, IS NOT an option.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

As Mole rightly points out there is a great disparity out there with some skid pans only able to train a speeds of 15 mph because they are just too small ot allow for the higher speeds. The ones used to train our officers? Large disused airfield and we have used a few specialist ones. I've also been on a family/friends fun day to Manby and a Yorkshire provider whose half mile by three quarter mile run can allow 50 mph easily enough.




Varies. Manby uses Computer controlled Mercs/Volvo (computerised hydraulic skid frame) which they say simulates all types of skid. The advantage of this course is that me and the Swiss idiots all learned to skid and control ourselves out of it at speeds of up to 70 mph - which was fun.


The girls in the family (my wife, Teds's 3 sisters and all the Swiss girls, their driver daughters and girly pals) tested out one provider in Hull last year. Again they used a skid car - this time a Megane. Their verdict? Course teaches the correct sklls on all conditions - including aquaplaning. What they particularly liked and felt gave the edge to them personally over the Manby course (OK - so we all did the Advanced one that time and perhaps they knew we already knew a fair bit anyway as we' ve played out there before on a normal family track day jolly ) - but this "Ladies only" course based in Hull gave a fair classrom session on vehicle maintenance, an appreciation of vehicle designs and how these will affect performance and handling - especially in a skid situation, recognising the causes .. weather conditions prior to using the Skid car. Tyre pressures are important to balance and vehicle control.

We've also used one at Stockton-on-Tees in the past and used their pan in York. That one uses low grip tyres on an ordinary saloon car and you will use the pan up to a max speed of 40 mph as its large enough for this.

We have tried out a few for comparison and each have proven fun and worthwhile experiences.





So what will you actually learn?


You will learn the basics of car control - understeer/oversteer etc.

All will include a theory session whereby you will learn about basics/handling plus a simulation in the case of all three we've tested on uner/oversteer/emergency stopping on icy or extremely wet roads. I particularly liked the Stockton provider's as it taught or tightened using ABS correctly in an emergency on the motorway. (We find that people simply do not how to use the ABS properly in many an incident on iinvestigation ) This course helps you get the most out of the safety tools you have on your car as standard



The York pan will allow you to skid and spin around at 40 mph - and it's helpful as you learn to control a normal car in a slide situation. The other two courses will train you in cadence braking/understeer/oversteer/emergency braking on slippery roads and very wet ones where you can skid via aqauplaining.

Most should include cadence braking and learning to slide in the simulator on a downhil with and without ABS,

Where the courses offering the course in a computerised skid car has the edge perhaps? They will simulate the accident and attempt to teach some damage limitation when you know that a crash will be inevitable for wahtever reason.


Thus samandben - these courses are very much worth while. Whilst we know all skids and other incidents will be unique to their own particualr set of circumstances, we can still draw on experience/acquired skills and training to diffuse the hazards safely and render them safe. The trick is to store the newly acquired experience to your learning curve and continue to develop.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

You have to try to steer out of a skid as it's self preservation. I would hope instinct to survive would set in. As said if you know a crash is going to happen and nothing you can do to avoid it - then some of those courses will teach how some strategies for "damage limitation" as RoSPA dubbed one of the courses mentioned

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Whoops, sorry. I believe that my Daughter did the right thing in not trying to correct a backwards, rotating skid from 55 mph. But if you can tell me how one might do that without complicating the skid then I'll be pleased to hear it . Also, it'll help deal with my inexperience even more if others who HAVE HAD just such a skid would also be prepared to comment[/quote]

These were, then, the 2 indicators, pre-journey. Otherwise, dry roads and no icy windscreens during the journey. [/quote]

I was referring to the thought that the passenger (your wife) might influence the driver to the point of canceling the trip - I appreciate that you see this as that the passenger 'felt' safe but she was not receiving much feed back from the car controls. The driver is far better placed to make these judgments more accurately.
The Lizard Brain mentality is a fascinating area of people's behaviour - the survival instincts and learned 'innate' behaviours in our more modern world.


I'm sure that she will agree wholeheartedly with you, now. Your points about learning, training, etc are some of the reasons why I titled my thread [i]'Do Winter Drivers need to be better informed'? [/quote]



More essential information for the winter motorist. Don't we need to make sure that they do know these things. Unfortunately, salting cannot control or remove ice in many cases.


All skidding in counter clockwise direction. First verge hit was on the correct/ nearside of the road. I.e. left hand side verge when looking in direction of the journey.[/quote]



Thank you. I've read our Authority's Winter Service Plan, which details the frequencies of saltings and the different weather conditions which mean variations in those frequencies. I need to remember that your Authority runs saltings at higher frequencies [/quote]


I can't say that, because I don't know what people know. I think that my point is that IAMs information, of all the authoritative sources we've discussed, is the only one that I've yet to find that specifically deals with black-ice. That, perhaps this information should also be in the Highway Code?

[/quote]


All the normal COAST rules would apply anyway to prevent most skids. Black ice is admittedly a much different issue - but even then - you can anticipate its possible presence as Claire and everyone described on the first page of the thread.

Hmmm.. she entered a hazard too late and hit the brakes too hard? Thus destablising the vehicle...


In such a situation you should turn the steering wheel further to counter the understeer. If this does not work - then simulataneously reduce the steering and depress the clutch. (She would have learned this on a skid pan course ) You may find the car still slides a little on returning to a less slippery surface and again you steer and gently straighten to allow the wheels to regain traction.


In a front wheel skid - car is understeering off the road - and the main cure would be to ease off the throttle - steer into it and declutch if necessary. But my skids are usually deliberate on fun days and in training sessions..


Now you say she spun backwards? And continued backwards..

DId the rear swing out - again caused by hitting the ice at speed and perhaps hitting the brakes hard in panic?


Now it sounds to me as if she tried to steer into it - but possibly corrected the steering too much which caused the vehicle to spin back like that? Easing off the accelerator/brake and declutching whilst steering into it as soon as she felt the skid start would have been the right course of action. Again - these are skills she would perhaps have picked up on on a skid pan session.

The spin you are mentioning happened because she did not correct the skid early enough (or not at all? But given the spinning - it does sound to me as if she instinctively tried to correct it - but may have been too late?) If you leave it too late - you can end up with a counter skid - which sounds like what happened.

Sounds like her rear end skid went 90 degrees and into spin and the spin gained momentum - causing the backwards skid you are talking about. What she should have done at this stage was declutch or whack into Park/neutral if an automatic. If you don't do this - the rear wheels will turn backwards - and could cause valves to hit pistons - expensive . You also gently brake or cadence brake to try to slow the car down and recover control - then spin the wheel to full lock. You will still spin until you face forwards again. Then gently straighten up. Had this happen on one family fun day.. but most of our skids are deliberate on such occasions That one was not quite as I intended all the same

But samandben - all of the above - you learn on the skid pan courses and this is why I say they have some benefit - but I would still suggest choosing carefully as budget ones may not be as much "value for money" as the more expensive and more thorough ones.




.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

But the car's heaters would have kicked in. You can still see if it's wintry outside of the car though




I am pleased you have taken this on board.




Indeed - and many local radio stations give out essential information. Police and AA/RAC alike will send out emergency travel info to the local and national broadcasters to alert the public at large to potential dangers.






See my earlier post
.




Hmmm. I always been aware that black ice cannot be seen that easily - but to look out for a tell tale "sheen" at cold spots on a very cold day.

DSA "Driving Standards" which is the book which should be read with the Highway Code does contain this information. Also - get hold of the DSA's video and workbook "What if?" as this also contains some useful information - but watch some of the hazard videos with a BIG bowl of

Wildy has also informed folk in the past that her foreign Highway Codes do indeed contain this information. She has copies of all of them on her bookshelf. I have browsed them on visits and they do indeed "spell out what to look for as regards the tell tale signs." These codes were all revised in 2007 - but whilst the UK has the two handbooks: DSA Driving Standards/Highway Code - it seems that the Europeans publish one comprehensive handbook. I dare say the Wildy will be on line brandishing her copy on-line

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I think that the best way of "correcting" a 55 MPH spin is not to get into one in the first place. It's far easier to "not get into a spin" than "get out of one" and although this might sound daft, I believe that skid pan training would help you here.

Skid pan training will give you some idea about what "manouveres" are more likely to get you into a spin and by getting to know what the "no-no's" are about driving that induce skidding in slippery conditions, e.g sudden excessive movements of the steering wheel, sudden braking or sudden acceleration, when it might be icy, then you would be more "aware" when driving in possible icy conditions and avoid doing certain things that you would "get away with" when driving on dry or just damp roads.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

oh I agree and perhaps this may be why samandben are seeking help and reassurances from us? I( think I explained how[ such may occur . but also stated training can and does help. But I think samandben accept this will be too late for their daughter .. but this member wants to help others avoid his own personal tragedy and given the documented history and BRAKE founder's experiences - I can see where he's steering from and can understand as a human being and stiill perhaps come across as "harsh" when looking at the incident per press and other reports.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I never said you should take your hands off the wheel! (Though not, it must be said, for the reason I imagine you're advocating)! Having your hands on the whel at the time of impact (if the impact is largely forwards) will automatically put your body more or less where the airbag expects to find it!

I think, in answer to SamandBen's question about how best to control a 50MPH spin on black ice, my feeling is that you CAN'T! Maybe if you're some kind of driving God in a particularly capable car and with lots of space, you MIGHT be able to, but chances are, if you could tick all those boxes, you probably wouldn't have got into a 50MPH spin in the first place! I think (no disrespect intended here SamandBen!) we're talking about a young-ish girl of fairly average driving experience for her age(?) and a fairly average sort of ordinary front wheel drive family car? Even if she'd been on one skidpan course - a good one, the best I would reasonably hope for would be that she didn't do anything to make the situation worse. If she was VERY QUICK with her reflexes, I think she MIGHT have prevented the full spin and gone off into the scenery more-or-less in a forwards direction - giving the car the best chance of protecting her, but that's about all I could hope for. I've had a few "plays" during vehicle testing on some wet basalt tiles - (slippier than a well-lubricated slippy thing!) in the past. They're a pretty good likeness to true, smooth, black ice and to be honest, I've not yet met many test drivers who can get a car back into line once it's gone more than about 45 degrees - let alone more than 90.

I agree. In fact, skid pan course or not, I don't think I've ever met anyone who DOESN'T instinctively try to turn into a rear-end skid. I'm not even sure it would be possible to stop oneself from doing so, in fact! As soon as you feel the car turning more than you wanted it to, you start to reduce the amount of lock - its just human nature! It's like blinking when someone claps their hands a few inches in front of your nose!

Where I think it starts going wrong for most people is AFTER they've corrected the skid. Now on some super-slippy surfaces, you might never get that far to start with because neither end of the car has any grip to speak of at that point. If you DO manage to apply enough opposite lock quickly enough, the car will start to come back into line and then you've got to be DAMNED QUICK not to "over-correct". This is where it always goes pear-shaped for me! I (and most people. I think!) can often "catch" the slide but then don't get the steering wheel back to straight-ahead quickly enough to prevent the car carrying on past the straight-ahead position and putting its tail out the opposite way. The trick (I'm told!) is to simply let go of the wheel and let it "castor" back by itself. As everyone will have observed, pretty much any car's steered wheels will always try to return to straight-ahead if you let go of the steering wheel in mid corner. The same effect can be used to get the wheels back straight after correcting a rear-end skid. The trick (and not one I've mastered, I must add!) is to judge the precise time to let this happen!



SURELY not whack an auto into "park"? Wouldn't that just be the same as yankng the handbrake on (if it's rear wheel drive) extremely hard?! (Or locking the front wheels up if it's front wheel drive? I'd think I'd rather cash out for some trashed timing gear than a trashed transmission, to be honest!

Sorry Mole, I wasn't having a go at you!

I was replying to the statement of the "so called" racing driver who stated " skidpan-practice will give you prior experience of something that you're unlikely to want to try to control."

If this guy is saying, "forget skid pan training because you don't really want to try and control a skid anyway", then in my opinion he needs his bumps felt. It's attitudes like this that mean we have so many "poorly trained and inexperienced " drivers on the road today.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

When the great Geared Up On did that spectacualr skid (cos he gorrit wrong! ) on a track day/skid pan day with us - (we were all in Germany on that occasion - we're such saddos that we try to include a track day when on holiday - especially if we all arranged to meet up somewhere.) - there's a decently huge skid pan near Munich (mile square) - we' d used one of our own old "wrecks" (which Wildy and the girls had bought at auction and "tarted up!" At the time - he was simultaneously cadence braking with the automatic "heap" in neutral mode - which had the effect of slowing the car down - but this is when you are spinning backwards and you need to slow the car and disengaging gears helps get into control. If he'd lost it - there were plenty of rubber tyres and soft-ish things to land in at the time. On the road - you have not such soft options.

We've encouraged our kids to bicycle and go-kart throughout childhood which I think helped them gain road sense and develop handling skills in the case of go-karting - especially if "skidding/sliding"


But again to sam and ben - I would say that encouraging the kids to do Pass Plus/Skid Pan training within the first probationary year of driving,.. then move on to IAM and other advanced courses - refreshing skills all the time - does help enormously

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I agree, I only had a go at go karting last year for the first time in my life.....sad really when you consider how old I am .... but I must agree, it is a safe way to teach yourself about or practice, four wheel drifts,skid correction, opposite lock, slides and car handling in a "foolproof" environment

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Many thanks. I've nothing against skidpan-training, per-se.



and too fast to deal with the transition from a dry road to black ice][/quote]


Yes [/quote]

Yes [/quote]

No?[/quote]

No. Please see my earlier description, this debate, of the smash. She describes the steering wheel being wrestled from her hands and sent rapidly anticlckwise, as soon as the car started to run over the wet looking road. She was not strong enough to turn the wheel back clockwise[/quote]

Agree. I think that the 'fixed/ max anticlock' condition of the steering meant that the car pirhoueted (bad spelling) aroungd that axis[/quote]


I'm getting so much advice like this that it would be silly to disagree. My aim, eventually , is to present my findings to my Council with the aim of trying to get them to make some changes to uprate winter roadsafety. Skidpan training should be included.[/quote]