Safe Speed Forums

No, twas not a racing driver who said that. Twas me .[/quote]


It'd be so easy to lose my cool here, and resort to Trolling..........but I won't, graball. [/quote]


If you really believe this, and I see your point, then how have you tried to change those attitudes? Please accept that as a fact-finding question, not meant as sarcasm.[/quote]

You've really lost me here......Above you quite plainly state....."but I can only conclude that the racing driver was right and that skidpan-practice will give you prior experience of something that you're unlikely to want to try to control."

Then you go on to say that no racing driver said that but you did.

I and everyone else has tried to get over to you that skid pan training will help you realise at what point, whilst driving on ice etc, that you MAY get into a skid and if you do get into a skid,then WHAT TO DO to help yourself get out of it.

You seem totally blinkered to any helpful suggestions that I or any of the others are making but seem to think that it is up to the local authorities/government to "hold your hand" and "wet nurse" you through driving in bad conditions. Well I'm sorry but it doesn't work like that and in my book that is OK because I am one of the old school who believes that you learn from your mistakes.

I am sorry that your daughter has suffered through her lack of car control but I'm afraid that many more people could suffer just as much, if they take the attitude to driving which seems to be..."it's not up to me to look after myself but local government"...this is the reason for so many silly low speed limits on roads today because no one seems to want to improve their driving skills but expect the roads to be "dumbed down" to suit the lower standard of driving that is becoming more prevailent.
I cannot help you any more on this subject because I feel that everything we say is falling on deaf ears.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

graball, I thought that I was linking a statement made by a racing driver, shown earlier in this Forum. Can't find that now, probably me not using the search-engine properly. I think the statement went something like this............'the only thing to do when spinning in an uncontrolled skid is to hang on and hope that destiny favours you'......
Teach me to correspond when I'm over-tired. What my statement should have said was.............'but I can only conclude that the racing driver was right. That, surely, skidpan-practice will give you prior experience of somethings that you're unlikely to want to try to control.

I have said that I have nothing against skidpan training, per-se. Prior to your postings, my ignorance has been met with patience and understanding. I hadn't encountered such terse and blunt reaction. But then, I've always been a sensitive little flower.

OK, Buddy!! Enough's enough. Kindly explain......'You seem totally blinkered to any helpful suggestions that I or any of the others are making but seem to think that it is up to the local authorities/government to "hold your hand" and "wet nurse" you through driving in bad conditions.

Explain your ........old school /learn from your mistakes......rationale to someone who has been through a serious collision and who hadn’t prepared themselves as well as you. That preparation is the point of my efforts.

You say that you're afraid that many more people could suffer just as much. OTHERS HAVE ALREADY HAVE SUFFERED and will continue to. Daughter's not on her own. I’ll reword something I put to you earlier. If you can tell me how one might correct a rotating backwards skid at 55 mph, and do that without complicating the skid then I'll be pleased to hear it . Also, it'll help deal with my inexperience even more if others who HAVE HAD just such a skid would also be prepared to comment[/quote]

Where in this debate did I say that .."it's not up to me to look after myself but local government" I'm not trying to blame-target Local Government. If you're in possession of information that shows that drivers, highway’s authorities, Met Office, Police are trying to share the same intentions for uprated winter-roadsafety, please post it.


I don't think that you mean that.

Please let others speak for themselves. I know that some of my responses have been less than empathetic to some opinions and advice. So, I'm prepared for polite backlash. I would value your continued participation, though, and ask again….Do Winter Drivers need to be better informed? "[/quote]

It was my cousin Charles (IG} und Cousin Axel (Swiss family GENDARME ) who advise this to us all. We already had the idea from our own go-karting und experiments with hand made bogey/go-karts from own childhoods though but it was the way IG und Axel explain the learning curve which made me und Ted (Mad Moggie Doc) decide to make this a MUST DO experience for our children. They love it! I think we had most interesting chatter with liebsten handy over this too. I have not seen "handy andy" since July 08. I hope he ist OK.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Just to confirm .. on page172 of the French and Swiss French and German 2007 editions of their Highway Codes (not on line - you have to buy und they are really worth every penny as a driver's hand book of substance - you only need a smattering of language - the pictures/diagrams add much/tell more perhaps? Maybe it appeal to me as natural multi-lingual by virtue of education


But these books say far more than UK HC 226 ff.

The foreign codes tell the driver to beware of "humid points"
which are prone to the near thaw sheen we describe earlier. Rivers.ponds/bridges - above/below /shady spot. ..roads exposed to NORTH,, sahded by tall trees.. dippy roads (you can meet black ice in the dip as well as on the brow... another reason why I attacked the Over Kellett police fools on PH und exposed various BiBs on there as ignorant complacent idiots - which was why they ganged up on me really


The foreign codes spell the obvious but warn their advice ist not exhaustive. They tell the driver that they will detect if they Concentrate .. Observe.. Anticipate.. Plan what to do by deciding speed/gear to use. It still COAST in other word You cannot escape it

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Das ist gut!




Maybe. That was the issue when that driver killed the 4 Rhyl cyclists that morning. He was not "speeding" but the cyclists say he was too fast for the condition. It ist a tricksy one. As a native of the High Alp und resident in hilliest beauty spot of England - one ist very aware of dangers und risk of the black ice.



So she oversteer und oversteer too much? It easily done as IG did it in the heap we bought und restore to life. A very old Hillman Avenger - und we still have this car as one of our "show classics". I still think it one of the ugliest cars on planet though Hideous rear end.. IG came close to destroying his engine und gearing though that time


I may be a bit behind with computer as I not spent very much time "fiddling und tinkering und meddling" - am getting much better at it as I make website/blogsite und play around damit.




How did she not note the danger sign of "bitter cold"?




You say not. How do you know what pass in mind in moment of danger? I know as I am known to be "controlled calm-ish" (but admit last pregnancy really hit me hard - more than I realised or perhaps fail to accept?) There .. you have some answer in this admission from me! I was in direst situation some 19 year or so ago though. You see it coming. You realise. You keep calm even though you realise the inevitable ist about to occur. You do what you can to survive und hope und pray. I think she act in instinct .. but oversteered to correct.




I not understand this. You steer /pump brake in rhythm motion (cadence brake) .. hit neutral in split second but continue to steer und cadence hit brake in controlled rhythm to ease to traction und regained controls. If she sense what you say - she was in fear und edge of some panic here.




I not say this to "bait" you at all. I state as it a fact here.. with substance from TrL und IAM und the rest..




Speed und fact she hesitate to correct cause it.

Samundben - we play on track und experiment all the time.

[/quote]


I am really pleased you say this. I'd go further und insist all applying for provisional licence has Bikeabilty to L3 und go-karting expertise too But these wish list points are rather "controversial" as so "avant-garde" und MODERN!


I edit . somehow I have the "icksy claw here"

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Samandben.

All through this posting you have asked should drivers be forewarned of icy/wintery conditions. You ask "Should winter drivers be better informed?" I believe that Odin summed it up with his early response....

ODIN said
"My answer would be no, all drivers need better education. Your question suggests that you only need more education when the roads are icey, this is plainly not true. All drivers need education to provide them with the skills to be safe on all surfaces."

I agree and the post should be entitled "Should drivers be BETTER EDUCATED for driving in bad conditions". The answer to that would have to be YES, but we need skidpan training, we do not need someone to tell us in the morning before we set off to work etc that it may be Icy/Snowing/Raining. We need to observe these things ourselves and drive accordingly, that way we don't find ourselves getting into skids at 55MPH because we drive accordingly for the conditions which means NOT doing 55MPH on roads and bends when they could well have black ice on them.

I know that my answers may seem blunt but life is tough and we have to learn these things for ourselves, not have some council official stood on every corner that has black ice on it waving a red flag to warn us.

When I was 18 and just learnt to drive, I was a bit of a "hothead" by some peoples standards. I used to drive about 150-200 miles a week, mainly rural roads and not exactly "hang about". In the first 12-18 months I had THREE "offs". Two of which were similar to your daughters in so much that I spun and went backwards into hedges (once down a dip) and once forward down a dip. One of these was on black ice doing about 40MPH (this was on a straight, flat bit of road which I have mentioned in a different posting on this site), one was in the wet doing about 50MPH and the other in the wet doing about 40MPH. In each case my inexperience caught me out. Since then I have only had one "off" when I was about 26 but that was while competing in a 12 car rally and a brake drum locked up causing me to continue straight on at a corner and (again) go down a bank and hit a tree trunk. This was the only one that noticeably damaged my car. (The same rear wheel drive MK1 Escort that suffered through all of them).Luckily, I suffered no serious damage to myself.

I have, all the time that I have been driving, (35 years and probably about 1000000 miles), tried to improve and although I still don't "hang about", I like to think that I now have the experience/skills not to get caught out on snow/ ice/slippery roads, mainly because I recognise the danger signs and drive accordingly which means "feeling" the road for likely ice and reducing speed and making all steering, braking and acceleration motions with that extra little bit of caution that you wouldn't neccessarily use in the dry.

Black Ice can catch anyone out and diesel spills (especially when it's been raining) can be just as deadly but if you know how to react, your instincts usually get you out of trouble, if you are quick enough and react accordingly.
You WILL NOT react accordingly or correctly (unless you are very lucky), if you don't have previous experience of such skids and this is where skidpan training or some sort of motorsport experience will help.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Mole quote someone he know.



No one want to skid on public roads. But if you do - some training helps to cope und mitigate or diffuse the dangers? Yes? You understand? We are not saying "cure" but it help. Hell .. I design the catalyst drug to direct the existing chemotherapies to target only the rogue harmful cells.. My und my colleagues' work get some overhype in the press as "cure-all at punitive cost"


But these drugs are not a cure in themselves despite the Daily Wailings .. but a concoction which seek to remedy und aid existing cures. Und a skid pan course .. plus other training work in much same way here? Oder?




Do not worry. I've encountered types who consider "diddums"to be swearingly baiting".

I'm lost as to who say what next.. Hope I interpret it right???



Claire has made me sit up und really think if I COULD HAVE avoid? Answer = NO! Could have been anyone in any one lane there. But I still mitigated at to point of impact und this help my survival? Oder




IG posted correctly in my opinion



I hear umpteen warnings to be fair here.



Yes .. but they need to be intelligent und trained up or experienced enough to understand all that.. so we are back to COAST und training again. Fullest circle

I agree with graball und Odin/


I hope you are intelligent enough to allow my inadequate command of English. I hope you accept why I use my smiley rocks of support too.. as I need the funny to help me.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

I think graball ist right. I wish I could write as he does. He say what I try to think better than I can do.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

I think that Diesel spills may be worse than ice. At least you get some forewarning when it's cold. Diesel is pretty invisible on the road surface in low concentrations and can be in any location.

I couldn't believe how, on a sunny day, on a roundabout, the grip just disappeared and the motorcyclist in front of me just went over and slid off the road. Very unexpected and frightening.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Wildcat, "danke schon".... (Keine umlauten, entschuldigen)... Ihren Englisch ist gut, besser als mein Deutsch oder Schweiz ....

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

I think I ought to clarify things here a bit!

Yes, as Wildcat said, it was me that quoted the racing driver. I'll not mention his name, that wouldn't be fair, but he was reasonably succesful at clubman level and a few one-make race series. The quote needs disecting carefully though!

The quote was:
"forget the heroics, there comes a time when the best thing you can do it stand on the brakes, say your prayers, and wait for the scenery to stop moving"!

I think a few things here are important.

Firstly,

"...there comes a time...".

I took this to mean that there was a point when the car was so badly out of line that the skid was irretrieveable. When this point is reached:

" the best thing you can do it stand on the brakes"

He felt that the best thing you can do is stand on the brakes to lock the wheels up (or in the case of a car with ABS, leave the ABS to bring the car to a halt as quickly as possible using whatever grip was available).


I still feel that's good advice. I have to say that I disagree (only slightly) with some of the opinions expressed here. I feel that skidpan sessions are useful UP TO A POINT, but I don't believe that this particular incident could have been controlled. Of course, there are lots of techniques that get talked about - cadence braking, doing things with throttle and steering, etc but we're talking about someone who wasn't expecting this to happen (and if she had, she wouldn't have been doing 50)! I feel that the benefit of a skidpan course is largely that you get o find out what it feels like. That's useful, of course, but I think the bnefits can largely be offset if it instills the belief that you can cope with a skid when it happens. It's a bit like the belief that you've got a car with airbags so if you have an accident you'll be safe. That ain't necessarily so - although on balance they appear to more good than harm. Karting is another good example. Karts don't behave like real cars. As soon as they start to slide, they're dead easy to catch and bring back into line. They're great fun, and very flattering to drive because of it, but I'd be kidding myself if I thought that a session in a kart would enable me to control a road car in a spin on black ice!

Yes Mole,
I agree with you that there are skids which are uncontrolable and as IG stated earlier, the best you can hope for is "damage limitation" and sometimes just pointing the car at something soft is better than heading for a tree or wall. I also agree that skidpan training may lead you to a false sense of security but any training to control a skid or even just getting the feel of how a skid starts has got to be much, much better than sheer ignorance.

Again Karts don't behave like real cars but again, any form of activity which encourages you to feel the vehicle sliding or oversteering and gives you the oportunity to try and control same, has got to be beneficial over the lack of such experiences that the average driver is likely to find just by driving on the public roads.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

In simple answer .... who can they be 'informed' of what, and from whom and when and how ?

For a driver to be the best they can possibly be IMHO they need to :
1) ensure that they obtain all the best information for themselves, prior to each drive, during each drive and re-assess at the end of that drive and prepare for the journey back.
Information from : weather forecasts, (TV, radio Internet etc) local authorities (Council gritting services - Highway Weather Lines (expensive numbers), Information from car instruments, then information in the news, or travel services, sat. nav. info too (SOME of this info might be gained over prior days and even weeks).

2) be responsible for their actions.

3) do everything possible to learn about how to reduce their exposure to danger, (at the earliest possible moment), and what to look out for especially with developing hazards.

4) learn as much as possible and educate themselves as well as time, budgets and ability will allow.

5) bearing in mind that inattention and frustration is the biggest cause of accidents, to try to concentrate on driving at all times - keeping our mind on the job at hand and our eyes on the road.

Now in answer to the oversteer anticlockwise skid - what would I do (apart from TRY to not get into it in the first place) - well :
a number of things ; (if I was driving my RWD car )
a) steer into skid (NOTE always ensure thumbs NEVER go through the steering wheel - at times like this you need thumbs outside of the wheel to help you have better grip and better control of the steering wheel plus in this situ - if your wheel needs turning quickly it can break your thumbs if they rest 'in' the wheel),
b) pump the brakes,
c) adjust the steering appropriately,
d) keeping a wary eye on surroundings, and prior vision of the road, rapid estimation of where grip maybe and try to be ready for it.
e) I would not have *fear* as I have experience of how to handle a skid, so I am thinking no chance that I am panicking ... fear can make you do nothing, act incorrectly (through lack of knowledge & experience), do all the wrong things, forget what happened after (can apply to everyone!).

The steering will re-grip as soon as the grip is returned to the rear / front wheels, (depending what you drive).
f) Further decisions to - less damage accident, which part of car might hit what, and what control I will / may have as grip is returned, or to deliberately spin the wheels, let steering go and pull on the handbrake etc etc etc will ALL depend on the road surface, vision knowledge of road prior (and during) event, where the are is 'heading' and what further avoiding action I may choose or need to do, if and when I can/appropriately timed.
g) If my actions are 'trailing' (or behind) my skidding car, then I might be dealing with additional skids or over-reactions, so my input into the steering especially, may need to be 'less and more' with the steering and throttle etc ...
From what you have said the spin was a anticlockwise (nearside or oversteer, and then she grappled to get the steering back; but somehow from spinning anticlockwise to the opposite carriageway, she then returned to her lane and then went backwards over the verge and hit a tree but I am unsure that momentum & gravity might be 'enough', force, for all this. ... I wonder if there is any chance that she put one or more further inputs into the car ? I am not sure that we will ever, know, though, as it is terribly hard for most people to recall these details, with any reliable precision (sadly).
edited for clarification

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Eben! Verstaendlich! Toll!

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

If you get to stage where you really have lost it for any reason - there so little else you can do.






Which ist what he ask - how does she recognise the signs und we have already mentioned all the obvious signs ....



You have to keep in mind that nothing in life can be guaranteed. Verdammter Teufel - there ist a lot of hype over one of the more expensive cancer drugs we've brought to licence finally... but this work only as a catalyst to the other prescribed chemotherapy. It does not actually cure! It ist exactly the same with driving courses und all the "safety gadgets in the car" of which some you have to know/understand how they work to derive benefit? Und ist the same with the course - you have to apply the knowledge und the experience to help in the situation which ist unique to itself. (I get the language jumble disjointed "vintage Wildy babbles" )






No .. but it teach the kids some early handling und feel to "wheels" und this also build up instinct?





I think she over-correct as IG suggest - which cause the second skidding session. It was not one skid - but series from what I understand here?

I recall my accident or its immediate split second before impact because I really thought I was going to die at the time. I remember crossing myself und thinking of Ted und the kids. But I retain consciousness - because a kind policeman kept reassuring me und stroking my head gently till help arrive. Then there was the inquest und the fight with his insurers for longest time thereafter...

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

I think I should expand a bit. Claire ask me if I am not over the accident from hell which was result of man having fatal at wheel und accelerating. I was in L2. Lorries in L1. L3 was crawliing more slowly as I recall. Hence I chose to remain in L2 at the time as I recall. I do not know. I can talk about it without feeling sick und hurting to hell now. But I do not think you ever get over the feeling of "ominous fateful foreboding" all the same und this stamp indelibly for life perhaps

I think .. tja..

I think??????????????????????

That if you really und truly believe that you are about to die in messiest way.. that somehow it all seem slow motion und you are looking for the "safe way out" in real urgency. It all somehow become indelibly stamped on mind in that moment of sheer .. I do not think FEAR ist the right word as I do not think I was in fear .. but more .. I think resigned to my fate as I think back. Maybe this was what samundben's daughter felt when it went so pear shaped? But she have the same recall .. charged to indelible imprint in mind. I do not know .. I ask others who faced that AWFUL und they all report clear image of the incident in slow-mo .. but still cannot work out how it happen? I suppose I may be made of of something a bit sterner as I try to establish if I could have avoid? Or done something different to minimise the injury .. but .. I was only just a week or so short of 25th birthday at the time. I was still on the "develop curve" perhaps .. I suspect samundben's daughter to be likewise. I do not at all want him to blame his daughter or make her feel way too "liable" for her situation as I fully undertand how she may feel as person und how samundben feel as her parents. I realise that samundben ist after some early warning system. We have discussed this but we also need to train up drivers for recognition of the off-chance of black ice.. tell them what to look out for. as this avoid catastrophe like Rhyl of Jan 6 2006 which end lives und detroy lives of all involve - including the driver as he never intend in his worstest nightmare. Any skid expertise or training can help reduce the serious outcome to some extent too. The course should also teach how to recognise the signs.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Isn't the written word so dubious, Buddy. Wish we were sitting round a table.
You and all the other helpful people on this Forum have changed my perspective, and I'd plead now for no loss of the information that has come from this debate. I always knew, from the outset that I'd face criticism & personal confusion with both stating my opinions, yet seeking advice. I've revealed little of what I've found from other sources, yet, and deliberately so. Also there's been so much discussed, and possibly too briefly, that I think we may be close to forgetting some of the earlier, core stuff.

Thank you for asking the obvious questions about how all of that can be made good. I ain't got the answers, other than (idealistically) trying an attempt to check that those who can make changes ARE as well informed, and in harmony, over best standards & practise.

Here're a couple of examples coming from this debate, which I've seen as needing some answers:
* The decision making process which sees different frequencies of salting (safespeedv2s 6 hourly, versus samandben's 18 hourly)
* Differences in the quality of highwaycode coming from europe to that from UK.

Best way of explaining my 'informed' is the same as saying about someone....'Crikey, they're well informed'....... Also, you've made the point well, somewhere I think, that it's about a process of schooling. I'm heartened to see enough interest, here, to think that at least WE can get the messages across, to our families and others we know. IMO it can't come from any, single source. When and How? Idealistically, before next Winter. How? Aside from via Safe Speed and my Councillors, for me I'm considering 3 major groups, all of whom were vocal in their criticism of preventive measures, last winter. Police Road Safety Officers in my County, the 2 county Business League in my region (who reckoned that business in this region lost £millions on one single day) and Edmund King of the AA. That's aside from my contact with an ex copper/ accident investigator in the North, who is 75% the way towards succesfully bringing change to local road-management, via his MP and Minister. His winter story and involvment were well publicised in the Press [/quote]


Sorry to be pedantic, but my Daughter insists that she could not turn the steering wheel, despite using all her strength. [/quote]

You have to be aware that I will address from Alpine stance. I agree that our HC ist more detail than UK in all reality. I can quote from all sources .. to give the extra room for useful debate. I'd never do so to be "confrontational" despite what a known spindrifted poison alleged.

I think grit depend on local regions. I know family in Manchester have been scathing on subject in comment to MEN und MART campaign to Dec 08 referendum...




You do need to lobby all to get a THINK out there,


[/quote]


I think then that she had hit the point of no return und a decent skid pan course can still offer the mean to mitigate as best able to diffuse.,


In my case . dry clear und in L2. He weavered. He could have hit any one person fron HS to L3./ . It was my bad luck there. Like your daughter .. instinct kick in to reduce or lmit damage as best one can. I know she will have done so. TELL HER SO . .as it HELP HER TO HEAL.

I say this as one caring human being to another samundben.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

And I still think that the more you can do prior to any possible hazard CAN help, and may be save your life. You took action, after you recognised impending disaster, however L1 and L3 will give you an escape route, which may have lessened the event.
In samandben's tale I still think more knowledge may have helped her to judge better. I utterly agree that more advice and education can help us to be better driver's. If we can avoid getting into things then all the better.
Any roadside indicators or signs can only be used as a guide and aid, but it concerns me that an ice indicators might be taken as a temperature for whole road section, than just for a single point. Good marketing and information films could help to get the message across but I wonder about better indicators like temp laser readers etc ... (but then ONLY as a GUIDE!)
It can be too easy to be wise after any event and I only suggest these things as important lessons for us all to learn from. In my event I let the car's go, and gave myself added space and less behind, although I had no scratch on my car but everything around me was in a mess, I was still shaking ! Gulp. I anticipated, and reacted wisely as it goes ... I was young too - 24yrs. I had had skid training by then and High Performance Course too by this time, and anticipation is a big part of road control. I had also had many serious driving talks and chats with Paul and a few others.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.