Safe Speed Forums

Well they are! You like them. "Wide boys1" They have hearts of gold... but we all know the score of safety and COAST values all the same..



OK so he was likeable. So what. He was illegal .. had no right to be riding a bike or driving a car. He was not insured.


I do not sodding well care if a "nice chap" NICEchaps do not normally endanger nor kill other people So sorry if I say f:censored:g not nice chap. I appreciate those who knew him liked him. But sorry .. I do not know him and I know he broke the law and injured an innocent who will have to claim compo from the MIB and ultimately from ME AND THEE on here.. so NO .. I cannot come to same conclusion. I may hope his soul rests in peace .. but I will not be lighting any candles for him.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

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They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
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Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

This says it all really. Crossing, school, parking, pedestrian - and still he hit her.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

If he's a nice guy, I'd hate to meet a nasty one.

What time I wonder?

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

http://www.middletonguardian.co.uk/news ... er_tragedy

"just before 7pm"

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

1,000cc- I'm presuming some sort of sports bike?

To me, that suggests utter contempt for the law and the ban. Obviously if you're banned, you're banned and it's irrelevant exactly what you want to ride/drive, but I feel it's a lot more symbolically middle finger to choose an exotic ride over a humble commuting machine.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

Oh here we go with the hypocritical commentary.

It was 7pm on a Saturday night outside of a school.

There are hundreds of comments on here justifying the variation of speed limits, examples would be:

At road works when the workers are not working
On all roads when the weather is good/bad
(Dare I say it) Outside of schools when the schools are not working

Now there are comments about this chap being a law breaker as he was a disqualified driver.

Perhaps he could even be described as an "otherwise law abiding motorist!"

The rider shouldn't have been riding, correct; this is no different from someone who was driving quite legally except for say, no seat belt, on a mobile telephone, exceeding the speed limit. Did his disqualification contribute to the collision? No it did not. Of course he wouldn't have been there if he observed his disqualification but contribute to the collision, ,I think not.

Do I have sympathy with he chaps family? Well yes I do, they have lost a family member to an early death. Do I have sympathy with him? Not really but I would prefer he didn't die even if he was unlawful. Do I agree with the plaudits he is receiving? No.

Where are you headed with this? You must surely see the hypocrisy and absurdity of your usual arguments. You can't pick and choose the laws you observe and when you want to ignore them; it doesn't work for anyone.

Even more importantly you can't lambaste this chap because he broke one law with tragic circumstances and then advocate the manipulation of the laws you see as OK to be ignored.

He was already arrested twice for driving whilst banned, so it doesn't bode well, but we should also try to determine why he was banned before passing comment; it could simply be bad luck arising from totting up and he was merely trying to retain his income to help his family. Or he could have been a nutcase out for a blast.

We don't yet know the reason for the incident, for example the brakes could have failed.
I certainly don't have enough information to pass judgement on the character or the collision.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

I agree, I don't think it would be fair to pass judgement on him

It depend. I usually slow for any roadworks anyway, choosing a safe - usually compliant speed at all time. We not know what speed he actually do - only that he was illegal und uninsured at time of this crash .. That he also have the history of previous conviction. All this give impression of the affable wide boy whom we all like by instinct - but all keep wary of all the same.





I think a lot different as this a very deliberate act. I seat belt/speed infringe may be a careless second. (By seat belt infringe - I mean that second in which he set off but forget to belt up ..It can happen - I have hooted und gestured as folk leave car parks in past... ) Held handy use? That would be relatively deliberate decision to make a call or answer a call.


But his choice was deliberate. You know if you are banned or not. You do not "forget" for a second At this moment in time - I have still not been cleared by medics to ride bike or drive car. So I happen to know or at least have some understanding of how they can yield to temptations.. but all the same - one ist a grown up (or tries to be. I know I play "pretend drive in driver's seat" with childish "eererrrrmmmm VARRROOOOMMMMM!" )





I do not think we say it did - but he was disqualified three times in a short life time - which mean that perhaps we fail to educate him properly??? Both in morals/self-discpline- COAST or motivating to safety-led riding



I think we have to bear in mind that he was loved by his family.. but that that family should still have been more draconian or disciplinarian in instilling sense of right und wrong und driving without licence has to be a Statistics across Europe show that the unlcenced have highest stat rating for carnage to selves und others because they are perhaps more inclined to run the stupidest of risks to avoid capture or perhaps for the thrill of being "naughty""


I think I would be happier if his plaudits reflected his "cheerful personality" but remarked that he was a fool in his actions that day und that he die for senseless reason - by his own decision und possible rider errors made from red mist.




I think we try to warn that illegal unlicenced will die no matter how many speed cams we put on the roads.. that we have to have the penalty to match the first offence to deter further offence - but that with that first offence penalty - there has to be a very comprehensive correcting course leading to pride in the sheer sklll of safe driving/riding. I note that two police forces - Surrey und Durham both are extending free rider courses to help .. along with the already known about DIS. The SAC cget offered under different criteria - as in cam op/NIP

I think perhaps we need more such workshops aimed at the young kids





I think it more than likely that he was biking inconsiderately und incompetently all the same. If his brake fail - his the responsibility to check. Likewise - if diesel slick or water after the rain .. making "greasy surface" - then competent rider would be aware of such I have to say he probably too fast for the conditions of the road at the time of this crash.

But in all this thread to so far? Has anyone considered his victim whom Mad Doc say will only be able to claim minimum from MIB - und whose compo und treatment land on our collective shoulders und not the deceased's insurers? She the one who really suffer the most? Mad Doc commented that he injured an innocent in the opener and made no comment other than he has little sympathy for the guy but appreciates those who knew him will want to remember him as a nice guy - which they usually are - but this does not mean "exonerate from culpability" all the same.

I note that the "SCP" person I am quoting has not considered her nor even made any comment in this quoted post - such ist his desire to label all here as hypocrites. Und I am not baiting - as I am referring to his own words within the first sentence of his post. If he had any real regard - he would also consider the woman with the SI.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

I have every sympathy for the ladies predicament, discomfort and inconvenience however he thread is about the "Nice guy..."

My point was that we see a hateful first post about this chap; I understand why; the problem is and I hope I explained it; there appears to be a double-standard applied to the observance or otherwise of road traffic law. The hateful commentary at the start is a sign of duplicity and I believe I was justified in pointing that out; I don' need to express sympathy about the seriously injured lady in order to do that.

Observing and enforcing laws requires some discretion and I think that is essential; this means that a line has to be drawn somewhere regarding what is and is not acceptable; I happen to think that discretionary demarcation should not be implemented by choosing which laws are or are not observed but demarcation should be done by degree; i.e. a speed enforcement threshold etc. An opt in/opt out system has a name and I think that name may be anarchy.

I mentioned in the first instance that htis character injured an innocent person who will have all the trauma of recovery followed by fighting for her insurance rights.




I have zero sympathy for the guy. Why should I? By the way - I have not campaigned for abolition of speed limits - but have asked for more and BETTER TRAINED police I do not want police to let folk off for twice any speed limit - but to use common sense intelligence.

[quote
The hateful commentary at the start is a sign of duplicity and I believe I was justified in pointing that out; I don' need to express sympathy about the seriously injured lady in order to do that.
[/quote]


You are baiting and accusing me of hating the person. I have not one shred of sympathy for the person. He was illegal when he set off and knew he was. Statistics show that this type are more prone to take risks and SPEED excessively .. knowing that they are on/in unregistered vehicles and unlikely to be caughtby any camera and if spotted by police - more than likely to incite to pursuit. Such bring it upon themselves and I have no compassion for these types whatsoever. I may feel for their families - but not really for the person who caused the trauma by his or her own actions. He was illegal and if you are illegal - you just don't do it.








I am not talking of 60 in a 30 here nor 120 in 1 70. When we say "discretion" - we are saying within fair reason - allowing for the odd slip - but not the deliberate take. I think you have been on these boards long enough - Steve - (and I will call you by the first name of the person I suspect you to be ) to know that me, Vrenchen and Charles are basically decent, generally law-abiding and decent types who discuss safe driving but whilst the Geared Up one is a bit of a robot - me and Vrenchen know that we can bubble a fraction over at times = but are compliant on average per the car computers.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Who said you did? Your reply doesn't have anything to do with what I have said, you keep replying with irrelevant commentary that is in effect debating with yourself.
OK let's have police at the frequency of cameras...now suggest how it is to be paid for and more importantly explain why you would drive more carefully under a campaign of a perceived higher tolerance and lower level of penalty.


The level of discretionary tolerance is available to the public and there is a discretion built into the majority of vehicles in that the speedometer reads high; if drivers are willing to drive like a "robot" or are willing to "bubble a fraction over" and rely on uncalibrated average speedmeters (commercial GPS) then it is no surprise that their luck runs out from time-to-time.
Your comments show that you are willing to take a risk with the speed enforcement as it stands; replace that with what you believe to be a more sympathetic regime and it is hardly likely to encourage you or anyone else to be more compliant and lawful. The suggestion doesn't make any sort of sense whatsoever and for the reasons I have given among others I think it isn't going to happen.
Having said that it is clear you agree with me that there is a degree with which discretion should be operated and I would say that degree is already been applied; your objection is that it is not being applied by the expensive assets you perceive as giving a more sporting and perhaps sympathetic touch. If you can come up with a way that does this at no cost to the lawful then please suggest it; so far in years of campaigning the quality usable road safety output from here is.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... ................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... ................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... 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I would like to know whether or not the crossing was a pelican one and, if it was, in whose favour the lights were in at the time?

_________________
"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Fair points! BUT, I think there are two separate arguments getting confused here.

One is about danger, the other is the old "the law is the law" argument (which was something an old SCP member I used to see on another forum used to get quite hung-up about)!

As has been said, we can't really comment on the "danger" side of things because we don't know the circumstances. As for the "law-is-the-law" argument, well, history is littered with good examples of the breaking of bad laws in order to get them changed or the breaking of other minor laws to draw attention to a cause. The people who did this (suffragettes, civil rights campaigners, faith groups etc) were often labelled "anarchists" (and worse!) but thanks to them y laws got changed.

For what it's worth though, I (and I expect many Safespeeders) don't actually want to see speed limits scrapped altogether, We just want to see policies that recognise that exceeding a speed limit is not, in itself, dangerous! Automated enforcement of an arbitrary limit (with our without a tolerance!) will never achieve that.

Does not say if pelican or zebra crossing. Sad case. I agree with GMP's comments.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

You claimed my first post was a "hateful one" against the biker and then launched off on one about

and then claimed his illegal act was no different to speeding.

Well - actually it is - because he made a knowingly deliberate decision and it is highly likely that he would have been speeding at a high margin above lolly and certainly should have seen a woman on a pedestrian crossing - which may have been zebra or pelican - it does not say!

But by implication - you are stating that we are campaigning for no speed limits. I am aware some would like this - but neither me nor my wife are of that mindset.











Since you already place a van close to a few of your cams - you askin' ?

But in any case - we are told there are umpteen more police officers. So it gets paid for by removing the false targets and the red tape - freeing them to do their job at the same fees we are paying now for these officers to be uniformed "desk jockeys"

We are suggesting police are still able to use professional judgement within a set and fair criteria. I am aware of a police officer on another message board who claimed he let someone off for 60 mph in a 30 mph and another at 120 in a 70. Now you and me both know that this should not happen - even though I dare say those drivers thought birthdays/Xmas rolled together in tinselly ribbons.. So I would be requiring some ceiling of all the same - but some common sense used all the same - based 100% on the condition and behaviour at that time .. but certainly no "get out clause for crass stupidity" Also - the tolerance would be "perceived" - you could still not guarantee outcome - nor where they are at any one time - so thus it would improve carefulness as it did before the cams appeared




Nope - I can supply you - off line perhaps - with the link to the forum where a police officer whom we have proven to be a police officer made a comment stating he allowed a discretion to a driver at 60 mph in a 30 mph and another boasting 120 mph in a 70 mph. By the way - his actions were certainly not in keeping with the official policy per the police force's website

As for us? We suggesting a driving system which will help people stick to the limits better without any luck .. just plain



Did not understand the last bit... Already suggested that paperwork gets removed and the officers we pay for start patrolling. Many police forces who claim they have placed officers out there on routines again are finding all levels of crime including traffic "offences" begin to decrease.

The degree of tolerance is not being applied based on what a police officer posted to another board in any case.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

We already have a system where the levels are set and professional judgement is used. There will always be variation of this because, stragely enough the officers are people, same goes for safety camera operators. Mechanical unattended devices always work to a fixed criteria once set by...the person... who sets them; in essence the same criteria and judgement is used because the camera is set by a person. Why is this significantly different from road traffic patrols? The only reason they can be preferred is the perceived fighting chance of a let off, as is illustrated by your examples. While the level is high it is up to the individual officer at the time to make the decision and that is obviously what they did; I don't think they would be justified in setting that sort of level permanently or as a blanket rule-of-thumb.

At no time have I said or do I believe that Safespeed want to get rid of speed limits; what I have said is that they should certainly not be optional as I believe is how Safespeed's mission can be summarised. I am in support of variable limits but I can't see why they should be considered if the limits we have now are not respected.

The problem you have is that the discretionary limits operated do not meet with the idea of discretion you have; if you want that changed have a try at being a roads minister where you will have a chance of influence. The problem with that is you would be getting better advice and the policy would most likely stay as is.

With respect, that is nonsense. For a start the cameras are set to follow "guidelines" - in effect they are set by a committee which pays scant attention to the circumstances of the camera sit. Secondly they are set to fixed limit, irrespective of time of day, volume of traffic, presence of pedestrians. As if a traffic policeman decided his criteria for nipping people whilst he was still in bed. In principle the court should be able exercise discretion but, in practice, there are massive discouragements to taking a case to court.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Yes I know this and you probably know the old joke about us medics - you never get two to agree with each other's opinion over treatments ... Seriously - we will read symptoms differently on occasions.

So I am aware each officer and each man in the van may see things differently. One (A66 site) likes the funny faces our kids pull and another does not





Because too often they seem to set at zero. We are now finding VAS signs flash up a red 28mph in a 30 mph when this only used to happen at 33 mph on the same sign We've even had the cams at Ings flashing at 30mph and that's a 40 mph zone. When folk have contacted your office about it .. and I have and I know Ern has
in the past - we've been told that "you are testing it but if "if you were below 40 mph SIR then you have nothing to fear" - but that's not the point. I cannot trust something which I seen not to be working properly.

Also - we all know that the cameras are "manipulated" as drivers slow for the camera and then speed back up to 15 mph above the lolly. Now maybe Pc Average Nice Guy may not take much notice and allow for friendly warning. But I'm still behind the idiot who brakes hard for the camera and who irks me to high heaven by doing so. So you cannot say the camera makes folk more "lawful or compliant" on that basis which was what I think you were trying to point out.





I do not think they were justified at all in reality - but the manner in which they posted gave a foolish impression which was not in keeping with the official policies as published on the internet by their police forces.

see your own post on another thread




I think you may find my first posts were in a thread about this. My view back then has not changed: Much as I know that me and Wildy are fully capable and competent at driving Jag and the rest of our "harem/toy boys" (respectively) at high speeds and have done so abroad - I cannot see how on earth we can police a policy whereby we can drive at Jag's top impressive speed as "proven RoSPA/HPC etc" with a sticker to show eligibility and rest drive at 80mph or lower if a two year probationer. I think we can and should already raise motorway to 80 mph to bring into line with continent .. and steadily improve driver education before we could even think of going down that route.


[/quote]


I am not sure if you were replying to someone and forgot the quotes?

Munich area has variable limits which work - so we implement similar harmonised training of German standard as we said in March 2004 as the then collective of posters at that time.

We can of course lobby for changes and we do send letters out to local MPs and opposition politicians - but are holding fire for now to see if they stand down and wwe then lobby the "candidate-elect"

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.