Safe Speed Forums

Well Abercrombie, you never cease to amaze me. You have already shown that you are shockingly bad at maths, now it appears you cannot read either. For your information and clarification, "do not result in any additional danger" is not synonymous (that means has the same meaning FYI) with not risky at all. A lane change is not synonymous with an overtake on an SC.

So apart from you comparing apples with oranges, please clarify who these zealots are, since you have now proved it was not Robinxe.

yep well I was talking on my mobile and watching a dvd on my laptop at the time, so thought I had better go slow....

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Unless it is a tractor, 4x4, horse box etc. in front then normally I would not worry too much, then again any vehicle going a lot slower than I would expect rings alarm bells. If you come up on someone going really slowly then you have to wonder why, either they know something you don't or you have to assume they are going to do something unpredictable, they might be having a heart attack, car trouble, who knows? It could be something to do with mainly learning my early road craft on a bike than in a car, but I always work on the principle that you can accelerate again much easier than climb out of a hedge with broken legs.

Mind you I could be too cautious, several years ago I was driving home on a smallish lane at night and ran into heavy mist or fog as the lane opened up to a two lane road, I saw some amber flashing lights up ahead. As I got closer, slowing, a figure in a reflective jacket starts waving a torch so I drove up to this figure dead slow looking for debris on the road. The figure turned out to be a police officer, the thing he said to me was " you came up there a bit slowly", I managed to come out with something reasonable while thinking, it's foggy, dark, there's hazard lights and a guy with a torch what did you expect me to do? Turns out the were looking for some ram raiders.

In your case it sounds like she was going too fast to make you think of a turn into a field entrance and did not look before turning, a bit like someone who just pulls out of a junction when you are 20 ft away doing 50mph, there is very little you can do about it. Last week my wife turned into our road and had to pull around a van parked 50 yards in, as she got level with the rear it just pulled forward and turned right into a drive, she managed to stop fortunately, the van driver did not even notice. She had sight of it for several seconds, stationary, no indicator or brake lights and pulled up to the kerb, if it had moved a second later she probably would have hit it. Sometimes no matter what you do it only takes one person to make the mistakes.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

I never overtake past side entrances on the right or what I perceive to be popular property accesses, such as petrol stations. But I draw the line at field entrances. There was a thread about this on PH, where Vonhosen ( ) was saying if you overtook and someone pulled out of a field entrance on the right, you would be 100% to blame. I don't agree, but I do give field entrances a lot of my attention once I've started to go.

On the speed differential subject, I think that in my car I do lift off a little if I approach someone else at speed and just go straight round them, then reapply power as I draw level with them. In my van momentum is a little more crucial so I probably don't do this, but then speed differentials are likely to be lower.

One of my scariest moments in my early driving career was pulling out to overtake a line of ~8 cars in one go down a long straight, only to watch the lead car execute a very neat U-turn using a right-hand layby and head back in my direction. Thankfully I found a gap in said line of cars, or I wouldn't be writing this now!!! What's interesting recalling this is whether I would've done anything different with the benefit of ~18 years experience. The answer is no, I think, though these days the person I tucked in front of would probably have remonstrated with me, as Overtaking Is Evil in 2009.

I got pulled over and breathalised one night (passed, not pissed)...he said "you know the reason we stopped you, was because your speed was varying". Not bad considering he had followed me for about a mile and a half, where I had left a dual gone round roundabouts and then entered a country lane off a main SC.....

I was about 1/4 mile from home up a country lane at 12pm (pubs shut at 11pm then), but he still said, "you won't be having another drink before you get home will you?"....

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

To illustrate this point, let's consider Halkyn Road that leads off the A55, near .... Halkyn!
The A55 is (in practical terms) a motorway, although it's not classed as such.

Yet, Halkyn road abuts to the A55 at right angles with no on or off ramp. You can see it here:

http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=Halkyn ... %20CH8%208

To pull off, you must reduce speed (on a "m-way class" road) to approx 20 mph. To avoid "road shock", you have to do
so at least 1/2 mile before the turning. No doubt, many would get pretty pissed off being "stuck" behind such a driver,
and some fools would even assume he is a "numpty". Just for driving home safely.

So, it's best not to jump to conclusions when someone is slow.

Abercrombie:-
Why do you have to drag every discussion down to an attempted justification of dangerous and inconsiderate driving? I could almost see your point if you were only trying to justify your own driving but you consistantly try to defend "40 everywhere" drivers and other demonstrations of careless/inconsiderate driving. Are you the appointed numpty defence lawyer on board?



So you are happy to put yourself and every other road user in your vicinity in a lot of danger for over 2 minutes traveling 40mph less than the prevailing speed and causing people to make frustration lane changes to avoid you? The knock on effect of your driving can cause higher stress levels for many miles after the junction for the drivers you have put in a dangerous position.

You mention "road shock" - the first 2 pages of google dont show anything related to traffic so I can only assume you are referring to the shockwave effect on traffic. I fail to see how you will cause the shockwave by clearly indicating and braking in a controlled manner closer than 1/2 mile. I would also wonder if any delay/risk caused by a shockwave would be greater than your dangerous and inconsiderate method.

Glad I bought that extra big box of troll food now!

No you don't. You indicate well in advance, and slow down smoothly and progressively, making sure you're aware of what's happening behind you, reaching 20 mph just as you are about to turn into the side road.

What you describe is, umm, to coin a phrase, "bad driving".


If you've followed them for a few miles you can reach a reasonable conclusion that they are a bad driver.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

funniest quote of the thread so far...

There's no other way bud. There's no slip road.

Abercrombie:-

Can you please stop sending me trollograms by PM. I have no interest in conversing with you unless it is in an open forum and for the purposes of improving road safety.

I thought he meant the shock he feels when he finds himself on a road you cannot just do 40mph on.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Well, I had a look at the Multimap link and this seems like a standard junction off a dual carriageway of which there must be thousands in the U.K. As this thread is about overtaking on single carriageway roads, I can't see the relevance.


PeterE's quote above however does seem relevant and if you slow down as he says, then any following cars will have plenty of time to pull out into the outside lane and safely pass.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Half a mile at 20mph takes over 1 minute, are his reactions and driving so bad that he requires this amount of time to turn off of a dual carriageway? If so then the epithet "Numpty" rightly applies to him!

What do you mean there is no other way? What about indicating one's intentions? Does one even need to do that? The driver behind the one turning need not indicate, their brake lights will illuminate to signal to the following driver that they are slowing; heck we don't even need brake lights to do that (we have them so there's no point debating otherwise).

It makes you wonder how traffic copes today with emergency situations where other vehicles, animals, pedestrians, etc breakdown or accidentally step out into the path of vehicles. If drivers really weren't able to adjust to the actions of the vehicle in front, there would be a mass pile-up each time that situation arises. In reality, the common sense of a good driver tells them to indicate, leave an adequate gap and to brake in good time without using hard braking and not unduly holding up following traffic.

To give some numerical perspective: slowing linearly from 60 (NSL limit, which is itself an assumption, as is travelling at the limit) to 20mph, over the "1/2 mile", gives an average rate of deceleration of less than 0.9mph/second I can do that without using my brakes!
(Who else can see where this is going? Even then the argument is flawed )

I reckon this 'road shock' is, at most, merely a by-product of the skewed perspectives of those who want to go 'as slow as possible'.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

I had assumed Aber meant to begin slowing at before the 1/2 mile remaining mark, but I do agree his post could read as being at 20mph before the 1/2 mile remaining mark; I wouldn't put the latter interpretation past him.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

whilst we're on the point of slowing down well before turning off, been experiencing a fashion on motorways of late of people when wishing to exit a m-way, moving into lane 1, (during normal free flowing conditions) slowing right down to 30-40mph then exiting onto the slip road, causing no end of issues such as backing up and swerving into the middle lane by people being caught by surprise or taking evasive action. an example of drivers not actually being taught on correct motorway driving?
I believe the correct procedure is to exit the m-way onto slip road at an, appropriate for conditions, motorway speed, then using the exit slip to slow down. and vice versa using the entry slip to reach safe motorway speed before joining, rather than tootling into lane 1 at 30mph, then accelerating after causing approaching traffic to anchor on or swerve out of the way.

I must admit that I find it better for everyone, to use the slip road, (providing it isn't "backed up"), to lose your speed on leaving a motorway and to build your speed up before joining a motorway (again assuming the motorway is reasonably quiet as they mostly are where i travel).

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

His posts have been making less and less sense as time goes on.

By the way, because I was bored this evening I went on a little experiment on a road similar to the one he describes. I can confirm that from 60 mph over half a mile, by simply coming off the pedals in 4th gear my car managed this deceleration easily. In fact I had to apply some acceleration to reach the junction. My car is not particularly out of the ordinary, it's a sport version of an extremely popular family hatchback, so I suspect that any car could acheive this.

Come in a bit late to this ...

Humm I am curious - this sounds like you were there - were you ?


When overtaking there are a host of 'events' that can happen and managing that risk takes a collection of abilities. Improving those abilities is important to road safety, learning from where is another issue.

Much of this thread has discussed the vehicle that you are overtaking and little has been commented on he car's position, the eye contact with the driver of that vehicle, if wheels are moving, absolute confidence that no assumptions have been accidently taken (of other drivers behaviours), possible problems not considered a factor.

Vision & anticipation are your great friends when overtaking - I think I run through a type of check list, but it is pretty inbuilt now. Anything whatsoever that causes concern prevents the overtake. Once in a blue moon, I am uncomfortable to do an overtake yet everything looks 100% fine, I will never know what stopped me but it happens, but rarely.

I agree that momentum helps to pass another cleanly, and different techniques help too. I agree there is an 'optium' speed to pass safely, but I would never deliberately choose a set speed. There are good overtaking techniques that vary depending on vehicle. Power in this case adds to the safety as it exposes you for less time to the dangers. Power applied at the wrong time however can make things worse so like with everything (just about) care and attention are need to apply one's skill as aptly as appropriate.
I do think an overtaking driving day would help many drivers hone their skills. I would be happy to go off for the day chatting about overtakes and all contributions to Safe Speed are very welcome.

Attention to detail of the vehicle to be overtaken is essential and until one is totally, really, really, sure only then can you make your move.
When you slow behind a possible vehicle you wish to overtake, it gives you valuable time to fully assess the vehicle from the manner it is being driven, vehicle position & changes to this, driver location, (esp id driving seat is occupied), check the vehicle's mirror to see if you can see the driver, the gaps (should always have more than one - unless a clear ahead road), if overtaking several cars knowing all the various cars behaviours is crucial, how they have all been behaving with all other cars, who keeps and doesn't leave gaps, (emergency exit if things go wrong), the vehicles behind you, obvious - indicators, if a driver is moving their head a lot (? checking mirrors prior, to take an action?) etc etc

So time behind a vehicle gives you a lot of crucial info, but one car along a straight that is (TOTALLY) Clear (includes ALL potential hazards junctions of all natures), you might be able to make all the necessary checks, and go past without the need to be 'right' behind it and follow at a slower speed. I am ready with the horn and lights when overtaking vehicles, with my car both hands can easily remain on the wheel too (and no thumbs through the wheel!)

Being certain about an overtake needs to allow for an abort, after many hours of discussion this seems to be when the front of your car is approximately level with their 'b pillar' (at the end of their blind spot-ish). Note though that the commitment to the overtake is likely to have taken place already but this abort point is after the commitment point.
It is never wrong to abort an overtake if for some reason something changes, perhaps you read something wrong, it is wrong (potentially highly dangerous) to carry on 'anyway' when faced with problems.
I have to say all entrances have to be considered ...
Being ready to honk can be very important for safety.


Really !? You have learned nothing that would make your car control and risk management better after 18 years. I cannot believe this. I think maybe you cannot 'see' your improvement, and it isn't obvious to you. However we are all learning more and more, and that attitude alone will be helping you improve. Quiet roads are difficult as delivery vehicles become used to 'no cars', so a little toot of the horn when uncertainty prevails is good.

Another issue on turning off a road - you prepare what vehicles you choose to 'slot into' when appropriate and allow good early action with this, then keep an excellent gap in front of you so that if anyone around you does anything that gives you concern you have space to move into.
As regards the turn off off the A55 the above will apply. The reduction in speed to 20 even as you turn off would be potentially highly dangerous, unless you were in a queue or conditions deem it necessary.
I understand your 'road shock' phrase, as the speed adjustment, when going from e.g. 60 mph roads to 30mph roads. Most road engineering allows for this as much as possible and gives drivers clues about the slower road and slipways to give driver time to readjust. All roads must be driven safety to the prevailing conditions.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.