Safe Speed Forums

This may put some peoples backs up but... I live on a suburban street which is used as a rat run for drivers trying to avoid a slow set of lights. The street is a straight run and is usually unobstructed as cars are parked in driveways. in the middle of the street there is an open park / gardens upon which children play ballgames etc. Last summer the local council arrived and stencilled a big set of ovals with '20' written in the middle. Job done, problem solved.

With nothing to back up this assertion, no bumps, chicanes or shared surface the signs are wholeheartedly ignored by the rat runners (usually 50something corporate types in Audi A4's) some of whom use our street to test the power of their cars and must reach speeds in excess of 50mph by the end. I would welcome a speed camera to my street if it were to mean that drivers thought twice about their macho lead-footed antics.

I welcome any suggestions which may solve this situation

in addition, I'll lay my cards on the line and say that I have nothing against speed cameras, I have never been caught speeding, I have exceeded the speed limit and I have been involved in a few accidents which might have been less damaging to my wallet had i slowed down a bit and no, I'm not a policeman or traffic official, I'm just a parent.

There may well be a few individuals who zoom recklessly through your residential streets, that’s a problem everywhere and it seems to be getting worse.

I find it difficult to believe such streets are used for power testing, that makes no sense because there will always be more suitable roads to do that, and no one needs to do it all the time, on every road each time they are on it.


You'll find that won't stop them. You may think it does but I've seen many chavmobiles zoom wantonly past them (these likely being the most careless/reckless/dangerous drivers of all). This is why IMO we need a return to trafpol, not cameras. Trafpol will stop them in their tracks for any offence remotely anti-social; cameras merely gather evidence of one specific infringement (not necessarily one that's automatically careless/reckless/dangerous) - which could be useful only if the offender wants it to be.


Why are people choosing to cut though a slow residential area instead of what should be a quicker main street? If the lights are that bad then maybe their use needs to be reviewed?

The new speed limit may well be entirely appropriate; it's also likely that speeds above 50mph are entirely inappropriate. It is very difficult to comment without knowing the lay of the road from an objective viewpoint. Could you say what the road in question is?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

There is an absolute solution to rat runs - make the road in question a no through road by bollarding one end off - this has been done to a road near me, and, whilst a few residents didn't like it, most supported the idea 100% and could live with the inconvnience. No ratrun - no rats.

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Steve, thanks for the reply, in answer to your points



The street in question is Seafield Gardens, Aberdeen Scotland http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=57.133451,-2.144426&spn=0.004215,0.007982&t=h&z=17 which lies between Seafield Road and Countesswells road. The traffic lights in question are at the head of Countesswells road (where Seafield Road and CW road converge)



The overwhelming majority of speeding drivers coming through this street are older drivers keen to gain a few seconds on their journey home. Aberdeen is a wealthy city and there are a lot of Audis, Mercs and even the odd Aston which I have seen gunning it down our street. Boy racers tend to stick to the show-off grounds near the beach and there really is no issue with them at this part of town. I disagree as to whether a camera would stop the executive car drivers, I am a company director and I have enough sense to slow down for a camera so I don't see why these seemingly intelligent people wouldn't do the same?



It isn't really power testing, it is i suppose frustration. Aberdeen doesn't have the same network of dual carriageway roads to handle commuters so those leaving the city towards the affluent suburbs to the west usually track along old established single track roads, mainly residential built up areas. the possibility of saving a few seconds must be too much for some.

My Primary concern was not to induce a conviction for those speeding, I would rather have a traffic police car parked outside ready to enforce a safe speed on the street. however I have never seen a jam sandwich on this street or any of the surrounding streets. surely if there is a case for cameras it is where innocent pedestrains and children are most at risk? let the motorways run freely and those who want to die behind the wheel can

Regards, Dave

Prof Beard,

that would be my dream solution but I can't see it ever happening. The subject has been banded about by the residents of the street and about 50% are for it and 50% against it. I suppose the swing will happen when (notice when not if) someone gets hurt.

Dave

This solution risks compounding whatever the underlying problem was that the ratrunners were previously avoiding.
The issue here was said to be speed, not volume. If a few are already exceeding 50, what return speed would they do when they find they've been needlessly blocked?

I don't feel it is right to impose on the considerate majority because of the anti-social behaviour of a few, more so when alternatives are available.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Alternatively you could either:

(a) make the road "access only", which wouldn't deter all the rat-runners, but would put a fair number off
(b) create a short one-way section at one end, against the main direction of traffic flow

both of which would inconvenience the residents less.

If the majority of the residents want humps on the road then I see no reason why they shouldn't have them – it's their cars' suspensions that will be wrecked, after all.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Thanks for the link CP. It seems to me that other nearby roads would also have to suffer the same problem. Closing those off too would possibly bring the network to a grinding halt. However, we’re talking about speed, not volume.


Wantonly speedy commuters still speed up once they have passed a camera. Average cameras don’t work well either as one can safely (safe to their licence) make up the speed if they are delayed for any reason. Even then: can you imagine cameras (which aren’t cheap to install, or maintain) on each and every stretch road?

Cameras have a whole bunch of negative side-effects that you don’t get with trafpol, which is amplified if the limit is set unreasonably low. Of course the limit on that road being 20 or 30 doesn’t make any difference to those already exceeding 50, which is what you were concerned about. I unreservedly agree that 50+ along that road is completely unacceptable under any conditions (except perhaps for emergency responders using blues and twos), kids at play or not.


That’s it – frustration: people feeling the need to cut though slow residential roads because the roads which are meant to be able to support them aren’t capable, possibly because of the slow lights. This frustration leads to aggressive behaviour such as excessive speeds, so speeding isn’t necessarily borne out of merely being keen to save a few seconds (or minutes or whatever). Of course that in no way excuses excessive speeds, but you can understand how some are driven that way. Fix the bottleneck, then there’ll be no frustration, as well as no rat runners (why would they want to rat run?) – everyone is happy.


Trafpol do it better, I’m glad we agree on that.
Yet you’ve never seen them on that or any surrounding streets? Do you think this is in any way a trait of an acceptable road safety or policing policy? I don’t! Don’t forget, the police do a whole heap of public services and monitoring, not just looking for speeders - so where are they?
Do you think our reliance on cameras had something to do with this?
Did you know the claimed effectiveness of cameras has always been grossly overstated? (I can explain if you wish)
Had the truth been told about cameras from the start I believe we would have had less cameras and much more trafpol. That’s why I don’t like cameras.

I should point out this campaign isn’t against speed enforcement; it is against the way it is done.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

At a guess using your road gives only a marginal saving in time so some of these drivers are going so fast to make it worth while for them.

Referring to what you say above, why not persuade your neighbours to park some of their cars on the road? This will make the road appear narrower and less able to support the sorts of speeds you say some drivers are hitting, this should be particularly effective if you alternate sides.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Prepare a statement for the local council (signed by all residents) about the problem (important to note that it is speed and not volume that is the problem and constantly reinforce this view), submit it to the roads section. By right they should put up a automatic traffic counter, which checks speed, volume and length of vehicle. This way the council knows there is a problem and will have to do something or else be held accountable if something does happen.

I reckon speed tables are the way to go.

EDIT:

Actually I prefer this idea

You seem to have identified the problem which needs to be fixed.
Make the main road better and who will use the side roads? Makes life better for everyone.

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Andrew.

Adding unnecessary hazards to a road is never a good idea in my opinion either speed bumps or parked cars. Parked cars cause visibility issues as well as being an obsticle.

Speed bumps/tables will increase noise at all times of day and night as cars brake and accelerate for them. Speed tables also reduce the apparent kerb height reducing its "crash barrier" effect.

A gatso will only stop speeding for 100metres or so and have the effect of distracting drivers from things they should be concentrating on.

I like the idea of bollards or the short one way section to kill the problem dead. As mentioned it sounds like the problem is caused by the poorly designed traffic light junction and this is what should be tackled. An ounce of prevention....

Beat me to it, Z.

Every time a council makes a main road less appealing with another set of retimed traffic lights/whatever, "rat runs" become more appealing to drivers.

From google maps it would seem that the road is a 20 limit and not a 20 zone.





Sorry if this is a bit vague. Basically, if it is a 20 zone then it should have calming measures, be signed at the start and end, and need no 20 repeater signs.
If a 20 limit it would be signed start and end and have 20 repeater signs.
I see no traffic calming along the road.
Maybe you should ask for traffic calming other than humps to be installed....such as having the kerbs extended to [effectively] force the drivers to slow and think. The same as parked cars but without the visibility and safety issues ?

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Looking at the google map and knowing Aberdeen to be as it is I would guess that nothing has changed regards road layout for decades so is this a problem that has only started recently?
If so why?
Is it because they have "modernised" traffic lights that have been there for ages which has made them less traffic friendly? Have they only recently added lights to a junction that has never needed them (this is happening all the time round me)?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Round here (rural West Cumbria) there are a few villages that have formed "speed watch" groups. I'm sure this is a fairly common idea, where a group of concerned residents are loaned a speed gun and they stand shifts clocking cars. Any that are significantly over the limit get their numbers taken and then the local "plod" send letters out to the registered keepers. The letters aren't prosecutions and are usually ignored, but if the residents can show peak times / hardcore repeat offfenders / high incidences of speeding, they might just send a real copper round one day to use the gun - in which case the offenders DO get prosecuted.

It doesn't tend to work that well in small villages because most of the speeders tend to be locals anyway and the times of day at which incidents occur are pretty random... - but in a "rat run" situation in a city, it could work, maybe?

Welcome to Safe Speed concernedparent

I think you are trying to tackle a problem of psychology in driving.
Pent up frustration from the main roads and the lights to which you speak are at fault, by the sound of it. Solve the core problem and the 'effects' of that problem tend to go away.
Long 'on red' lights can cause untold frustration, so when a driver / road user then finds a little tarmac they can be a little excessive.

How can you tell they are going above the limit ?

Generally speaking drivers slow when they see a hazard, so can I assume (legally right or wrong put aside for the minute), that when you see these vehicles accused of going quicker, are they going too quickly for the conditions ?
Are there hoards of kids and so on about ? Or even any kids / people etc about ?

Is it that you 'fear' something may happen, because you have lost faith in anyone going over what might appear to be a posted limit?
Have you got the stats for the Aberdeen area residential roads ?

Some cars can 'look' a lot faster from the roadside than when you are in them, it can be deceptive.

I disagree with many road furnishings for many reasons, but they include car damage, and distraction.
We must ensure that drivers / road users understand their responsibilities to themselves and each other.
Instilling better practices in road users, to ensure they only go at speeds that are right for the conditions (one that they can stop int he distance that they can see to be clear in).
The VAS (Vehicle Activated Signs) are quite good at reminding people of their speed at that given location, and have been proven to guide drivers to act appropriately. This maybe worth suggesting to your local Council, to have a proper survey carried out. Talk to your local Police Station and see if an officer can visit and have a presence at the 'problem' times. I am sure that you help a lot. We are all for Traffic Police presence as it is proven that they are the best deterrent of all.
A proper Road Engineer needs to come down and survey the whole area, and understand why the rat-run has become necessary in the first place. Why is another route less favoured. Keeping good traffic flow onto the main roads ensures small roads do not take anything other than some overflow from time to time.
From the map it is not clear where or why they are using the roads you mention, and I assume the road parallel to you is also used ?
If they are 'on their way home' are they going N or S ? And if it is only a few cars then is it also in the morning too or just the evening ?

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We had a similar rat running / speeding problem in our village. We have no street lights or pavements and a 30mph limit which was regularly ignored by the vast majority. As a driver myself, it is easy to spot the blatant speeders, and clearly these were the majority of vehicles passing through. Police identified a problem and played lip service with their usual cop-out known as “Speedwatch”. This had little effect and volunteers soon dropped off.

Following local meetings it was decided that a little self-help was required. It was easy really, people rat-run because it is quicker than taking the main route. We simply made life as unpleasant as possible for the rats, causing them delays, inconvenience, frustration and uncertainty.

1) A good start is to park your cars on the road strategically to create chicanes and therefore cause tailbacks, hold ups and one-way stretches that slow traffic dramatically. This is simple and it works a treat.

2) Reclaim your streets by encouraging locals to cycle and walk more.

3) Create a pool of drivers willing to go out at peak times and drive within or preferably WELL BELOW the limit. This causes frustration – but you are only playing them at their own game and hurting the top speeders the most by slowing them down the most. You will be amazed at how soon drivers start to take different routes when they get held up like this on a regular basis. In other words do everything you can to ensure that the roads you are concerned about gain the reputation of being the slow way and associated with hold ups and awkward manoeuvres.

4) Not sure if it applies to you, but as we have no footpaths and properties extend to the border of the roads, drivers used to use private drives as “passing places” as the roads are so narrow. We then blocked all private drives with gates or by placing logs / stones / posts to stop or make this practice difficult. Now drivers have to slow up and often reverse several feet back to pass on-coming traffic at narrow spots.

5) Our residents association purchased a second-hand tractor which is driven by volunteers around the village to slow up traffic during rush hour. The local horse riding club also time their activities with the early evening rush hour – this causes havoc. We timed a vehicle going down a mile long stretch of winding lane at 25mph – 30mph. Then we timed four horse riders along the same lane; the practice caused a 15-20minute hold up.

6) During times of frost and snow we ensure our roads are well salted. This corrodes the roads causing pot holes making our village a very unpleasant cut through. We also encourage growth of foliage along the road to restrict views and cause uncertainty

The methods above have worked beyond our wildest dreams! I would say through traffic is down by at least 50% and that speeding has all but been eliminated. We are in contact with other areas who use similar methods and all have reported good results. What the authorities either do not know, or are maybe turning a blind eye to, is that a growing number of ordinary people are fed up with the excuses motorists make for speeding and are taking measures to deal with it themselves.

Keep pressing for a camera. Whatever the views on here, motorists do not like them BECAUSE THEY WORK. There is evidence that once drivers get 6 points, they start to change their behaviour. Talks from the cops and vehicle activated signs don’t result in penalty points, that is the only reason motorists claim to like them. We had a VAS put in – it worked for a few days whilst it took the regular speeders by surprise. Once they all got used to it they returned to their normal illegal behaviour. Whatever the claims Claire makes – these signs DO NOT WORK and there is no evidence that they do.

Finally, you could shame the speeders by getting your kids involved in holding up home made signs along the route, or actually blocking the route with fake broken down vehicles.

Persevere – just like the war against law-breaking speeders is being won by the Govt., you too will win. Good luck.

Try this Gooddriversam - pull out of a junction 10 times without looking, or changing lanes 10 times without checking your mirrors, then drive at 21mph down your street 10 times, see what causes the most actual harm, (I'm not condoning any of the behaviour happening on your local roads). safespeed campaigns for allround better driving which includes pure fundemental requirements / skills (observation, anticipation, awareness, control) being lost on many drivers which some speed camera supporters either lack themselves or aren't prepared to contemplate / understand / learn about, as it doesn't fit in with the Slow Down / 30mph / Brake / Speed kills mantra . Preventing accidents altogether through better driving is surely better than having plenty of low speed incidents due to lack of skills, awareness.
You've tried to disssuede drivers from using your street as a rat run - fair enough, but what happens when you're blatently causing 20min delays and an ambulance is trying to get to a critically ill relative of yours but struggles due to the hold-up?

"Gooddriversam",
Is it actually a village that you live in or a hamlet...there is a difference. How many houses actually front the main road in question?
Depending on the answer to this question, may explain why so many drivers seem to "ignore " your 30 MPH limit.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.