Safe Speed Forums

I started this over on PH (wont be long before i'm barred ) But this really does make your blood boil.
Two seperate cases of Police officers found guilty of DD, And in both examples are given back their jobs,
Wednesday, July 22, 2009, 09:20
A SOUTH Devon police officer will face justice after High Court judges ruled he was wrongly cleared by magistrates after he crashed his BMW while over the drink-drive limit.
http://www.thisissouthdevon.co.uk/news/ ... ticle.html
and this one,

There was anger today after a detective forced to resign after admitting drink-driving was handed her job back by the Chief Constable.

DC Natalie Brennan (28) was arrested by colleagues from the Greater Manchester force after she drove through three counties to her Lancashire home
http://rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-featur ... r-job-back

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nigel_bytes

It's so the police can say they include representatives of all facets of society in their ranks.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Is it really hypocracy or do all employees loose their jobs automatically on conviction for DD?

I dont believe they do so this is a way of ensuring proportionality and fair treatment is it not?

I don't agree with DD; my personal limit is set at 0; I have no issue with people who drink and drive within the limit set, thats up to them; personally I dont take the risk.

No, all those convicted of drink driving do not automatically loose their jobs, but most people aren't employed to uphold the law.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Much of the problem here comes from inconsistency - some police officers are sacked for D&D, others aren't.

For example, in 2000 I noted a news report that: "The widow of a twice-commended policeman who hanged himself after being forced to resign because of a drink-driving conviction is considering taking his former employers to court alleging they had applied double standards in their treatment of him. Carrie Ellis said she felt her husband Richard had been unfairly treated by Hertfordshire Police who had allowed six other officers convicted of the offence in the past four years to keep their jobs."

The police in their role of upholding the law do need to be seen to be maintaining higher standards than the rest of the population, but on the other hand it would be counter-productive to sack officers who were convicted of very minor offences whether or not traffic related. A clear line should be drawn and applied consistently.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

What appears to be inconsistency may be just the opposite in fact; perhaps it is the application of proportionality and fairness that appears to be inconsistent when the punishment fits the crime. This would be common if all that is considered is the sanction awarded rather than all of the attendent circumstances.
Why do the police not have a system of demotion rather than dismissal? Perhaps they do I dont know.
A clear line is not achieved by simply saying "sack them all who henceforth do this evil act!" as the circumstances, aggravating and mitigating factors are not taken into account with your simple "hang-em-high" solution; it is uncivilised and backward in its nature.
An application of a policy of sanctions that take many circumstances into account does in fact apply consistency even when some are sacked and some are not; it is the modern and mature way whereas "hang-em-high" is the way of the middle ages.
No Offence Intended.

Not so long ago I was told by a retired officer that he could lose his pension rights if convicted of an offence -if true that seems particular harsh .
Any BIB able to correct /confirm /add to /explain why ?

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

It was routine for those in the armed forces to loose pension rights upon conviction of an offence that involved dismissal however I believe that has been ruled unlawful as they contribute a lot of funds to their pension during service.
I understand that the police pension is non-cotributory (not sure if that is correct though) so it is still considered lawful to remove the rights to it on dismissal.
Maybe someone can expand on that.

It may well be the case that a sensible and proportionate policy is being adopted, although I have my doubts. However, you must admit that when you have a very clear-cut offence of drinking and driving, which attracts a minimum 12-month driving ban, to sack some officers and retain others appears highly inconsistent, even if there may be some logic behind it. If there is some behind-the-scenes consistency, then it might help the police if it was made public.

FWIW my view is that automatically sacking police officers for a first offence of drinking and driving could well be in many cases disproportionate and might deprive the force of good people - I am not arguing for an absolutist line to be taken.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

You must also consider if being able to drive is a prerequisite for a police officer's job. For example, a salesman who loses his licence will usually be unable to fulfil his contract of employment and will be dismissed. The same may be applicable to the police.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Yes, but if the salesman is well thought of by the management he may well be given an office-based job during the term of his ban. If he isn't, then it will be used as an excuse to sack him. That kind of favouritism is no doubt what happens in the police.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Well for criminals there is the Sentencing Guidelines Council and the Criminal Justice Act 2003 to follow

That lot is reasonably public

Perhaps the police are starting to sentence their employees wrongdoing in the same manner as the miscreants they deal with

It is fair and consistent and very public you are maybe just not aware of it hence the logic in the background

It isnt consistent to do as the OP and compare sentence and crime without knowing aggravating, mitigating and other circumstances so "Police Hypocrisy" is not evident I believe it is just the opposite and they are finally treating their staff like the rest of us would be treated dare I say it "justly!"

Traf pol gets DD probably loses job as no other skills to perform another role so sacked?

Beat bobby (if not replaced by PCSO) gets DD can still perform normal duties so keeps job?

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Prepare to be Judged

But can't the trafpol be transferred to beat duties?

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

many are

PH sadly ist not the board I initiallly post to. It has beome a police board und if you disagree mit the current so-called cops - they mount high horses. Their "advice" by the way .. you only need google or browse in a professional bookseller to work out that they have googled but not understood what they read.

One of these PH "cops" makes 20 posts per day. I have spend hours this evening just reading the threads on this board. Where ist his time for work? He post what I can google for anyway. Paulie was suspicious. As I am now.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Ages ago .. Mad Doc post the sad tale of a chief CID cop who lost his job.

He split from wife. Acrimonious divorce. They meet in Sale wine bar. Argue. He storm off afer consuming some wine. She inform police who arrest him.


He keep job as "provoked by woman's fury as the scorned one"


Later..he copped drinking on duty in desk office. He required to resign here.

I think then that mitigating circumstance as police are caring employers prevail as one would rightly expect .. but all employers rightly only allow one bite at the cherry.


I think it has to depend on circumstances und individual case. .

But as for PH .. you have to sing from the plod hymn sheet of political correctness these days. It ist notthe forum of Petrol Ted's vision .. but something different und which undermine the enthusiast immensely. Post to this site if you care about driving. Post to PH if you only have lip service to driving . Post to this site if you truly CARE about your skills as this ist where the serious minds reside.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!