Safe Speed Forums

Coach death firm denies 'wrong tyres'


Published: 10:52AM GMT 20 Feb 2005

A British company today said it was "flabbergasted'' at police claims that a coach which crashed in Germany killing a passenger had the wrong tyres.

XXXXXXXX died when she was hurled from the vehicle which overturned in snowy conditions.

Another seven Britons were seriously injured in the crash near Grunstadt on the Mannheim-bound stretch of motorway at 7.15am yesterday.

The Highway Police in Wattenheim said the coach was only equipped with balding summer tyres.

"In the opinion of the police, it is irresponsible to send a bus with such tyres on a trip in the winter,'' they said in a statement.

A police spokesman in Mannheim said later that one of the passengers, a 45-year-old man, was in a critical condition in hospital in Ludwighafen.

He said a file on the accident will be passed by police to the local district attorney tomorrow to see if anyone would face a criminal prosecution over the crash.

He said: "The accident happened because of snowy road conditions and going too fast for that condition on the road.

"The tyres were summer tyres but in Germany there is no regulation that you have to have winter tyres on by law."

But XXXXXXX, spokesman for XXXXXXX Coaches which ran the Austria-bound ski-trip, said: "We are flabbergasted that the police would say such a thing.

"The company has been operating for 26 years without a serious accident."

"It is a modern coach, it has all the safety fittings and it was fully checked before it went,'' he added. "It is unhelpful to speculate at this stage without any proof. We would like to wait for a full investigation."

Some of the uninjured Britons were taken to their holiday destinations in Mayrhofen and Kirchdorf, Austria, last night.

Others were flown back to the UK after opting to cancel the ski trip.

This is a news report about a British coach operator, "allegedly" having summer tyres on a coach going to Austria in February.

If coach companies going to the Alps are "reluctant" to put winter tyres on, what chance is there of the average UK motorist doing so to stay in this country?
I use to work for Parcelforce, covering Mid Wales and ( unless their policies have changed since I left about 6 years ago), they never used to change their tyres come winter for anything other than "normal" tyres. If a big company like Parcelforce/Royal Mail, operating in the hills of Wales aren't going to use winter tyres then what chance of you got of persuading the average British motorist to do so

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Driver was prosecuted and found guilty of negllgent driving per my wife.

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Yep that's true but I know people who were on that coach and the German police are unlikely to mistake summer tyres for winter ones.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

I'm not trying to pour cold water on what Samandben's trying to do. I think he is a saint for trying but I also think that, trying to get the authorities to make roads safe enough for the "average" motorist throughout the whole of the UK is one hell of an uphill struggle. Personally, I think better driver training when they first pass or even before passing their tests would be more productive

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

In all fairness to the coach company involved. My friends who were on the coach at the time, still use them for their winter holidays and have every confidence in the tyres and drivers that they are now using.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

The problem, as I have said before, is that we very rarely have prolonged periods of Wintery weather even up here in the Peak District hills. Changing tyres every few days isn't very practical.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

You don't change them every few days. We keep the winters on from Nov - March .. or rather Wildy does as she's a bit odd that way

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

But by doing that you are sacrificing tyre performance, and thus compromising safety, when conditions are not wintery. To me it makes little sense to reduce safety for the 145 days when winter tyres are not appropriate in order to increase safety on the 5 days when they are.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

I wouldn't have thought that the average motorist would have noticed much difference in performance between winter and summer tyres in "non wintery" conditions myself.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

BTW agree about the going up and then the down can be a WHOLE other issue !!

The spinning wheel I know can dig a hole (not sure where I might have said it didn't but no matter), and when I had to use spinning wheels in earnest, to make any progress (with LSD) it was a sidewards progress and thankfully although rare up here to have any oncoming traffic. I don't have 4WD just 2 (lsd). It was also a pretty steep hill but straight, the other route had sharp corners and a hill, and yes the down was almost more dangerous but less of a hill and various bends but most had grass slightly bank verges before the trees ! But it took a lot of skill to transverse successfully, the A9 (major trunk route) was 20mph, although the 4x4 landrover (many of them up here and often wish I had one), overtook me doing at least 30/40 (safely) although swamped my car with slush etc!
Gritting was in progress but not enough - if the A9 is bad you know they are really struggling on the hills. This bit was low, you also know that ALL surplus hill road are closed so the A9 is the only main route open, and if that stops then stay at home or stop at nearest house.

One tip I was taught many moons ago:
If you stop think of the LAST house you passed and go there (esp with lights on). ONLY if you KNOW 100% of the house up ahead, AND the route thoroughtly. Otherwise always go back because you know it was there, up ahead could be anything and further than you think esp in really bad blizzard white out conditions.

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In that case why change the tyres for the summer?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

In countries where snow and ice are prevalent, winter tyres are part studded. Thus they change them back in the spring to avoid excess wear to both the tyres and the road surface. Winter tyres in the UK would not need studs and could be used in the dry but they are very noisy and have a high wear rate when they get hot.

I think the point made above about the number of days which the majority of us get snow being very few is relevant. If you live in a remote location prone to snow then you should take resonsibility for yourself and equip accordingly. There is no need for more legislation to force us to all get winter tyres.

BTW, if you live in a flat with no garage, where would you keep them?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

You could use them as base of a circular coffee table

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Apologies to samandben who sent me a PM ages ago about winter tyres.

The subject has just come up again on PistonHeads and I've bunged in this reply:

"Back in the early 1960s when I did a lot of travelling on roads that could get very tricky in winter conditions, I used winter tyres to help cope with the snow better. These were tyres with a more coarse and chunky tread pattern, but we never talked in terms of needing a different compound to provide more grip at the lower temperatures. I just used to change the rear tyres, the car being an Austin-Healey Sprite, which of course had RWD.

Nowadays we seem to keep hearing about normal tyres being geared to summer temperatures, and that they give a much lower level of grip when the temperatures get down towards zero C. Logically this implies a need for different tyre compounds to be used in the winter months, but to my mind this is nonsense as I can't believe that any normal motorist will change tyres on account of that factor.

I'm inclined to feel that if you drive sensibly in a style that is appropriate to public roads (as opposed to track use) there should be no need to go looking for different compound tyres for winter use. What you might do is seek a tread pattern with more 'bite' if you live in a rural area and get lots of snow etc. Otherwise there is no problem worth bothering about, I'd say.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

yep back in early 70's when most cars were rear wheel drive, living and working in areas that were a)hilly and b) quite rural, we young lads used to fit what we classed as "rally tyres", Goodyear ultra grip was one make if I remember rightly (we had a mate who worked at goodyear so got them cheap.) These were classed as M&S (mud and snow tyres), we used to use them til they needed changing though.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

I had two sets of wheels for my rally car in the '70s: one set of wide low profile tyres for the road and one set of German pattern Ultragrips for stages.

On tarmac, the differences were very obvious with the Ultragrips breaking away much earlier (but progressively) while the others gave much more mechanical grip.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

yep the ultragrips were a nice controllable tyre unlike some Dunlop equivalents(SP 44) I tried around the same time.I know some of my mates had the German pattern but mine were more of a block tread than the german knobbly tread. What did you class as low profile? 175/70 was classed as low and wide in my early days..... My next car was an XR2 1982 which was "really" low and wide at 185/60/13..to think that I'm on 40 profiles now....

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

just been skimming the latest tyre discussion... i recall chatting with a taxi driver in northern sweden during the winter.

in the depths of winter his experience was that good winter tyres performed better than studs, it's cold enough that wet ice isn't really prevelant and the extra texture on winter tyres offered good grip on the typical dry ice and snow surfaces.
he only resorted to studs early and late in the season when the freeze/thaw cycle begins and 'wet' ice is common (about the same time the authorities plough the accumulated snow banks a good distance away from the edge of the road so they don't just melt back across the road surface).

the problem in our moderate winter climate is that we mostly only ever get wet ice/snow, and even then mostly sporadically.

In my homeland . you can be prosecuted for not using winter tyres. This has been law since before I exist. OK .. so a different land with different climate.

A cultural clash for me.

I live in Lakes., hilly . prone to nasty weaher on high grounds. I use my winter tyres. They have toppest grips. I use lae Nov to last wek Feb but that is me und I live in hilly area... I also set in ways of Heimat in steepest. coldest gradients.


Liebsster Dave.. Time fly. It seem like a second ago since Mad Doc land his dream job which mean I can take my career promotion.


I tell you in priuvate und now think OK to make publc that it was most stressful time . coming as did with pregnancy of twins . which make me so emotional too. I had the promotion which mean move abroad. But Ted had to move too to job of similar or higher status within commuter distance . und he do it But moving from what we know. love .. adore... completely und loyally. Not as easy as you'd think. I get tearful here.


I cannot believe the twins are age 6 month now either. It seem like yesterday when I give birth ., but since ., life been at top speed for me with so much to do. . enjoy. .get emotional . But we have family staying here. . und work with teams here... so we return ab und zu. If not mot manage meet before Sep 24 . then we can re-arrange ab und zu when we return in a more "holdiay frame of mind" if you know what I mean here

I am emotional. I feel ... feel .. sad at idea of leaving home I adore. I will cry my eyes out on the journey out there . which occur scarily soon now. I knw we sign up for 3 year in case we not like.., I will say new home look nice. We registerr with fora similar to this one which require hardest thinks und one like PH which ist very light weight und like PH .. hardlyu change policy or threat to do so as this one does I have to say folk know safesoeed. They look und sound blank if you say "pistonheads"//so IU would suggest some idiots have an arrrogance which mean all to the real world out there und reflect the sheer arrogance of such fools. Inj fact , when we report fools . to IPCC ..they have not heard of PH. Methinks some have a false idea of what matter in real world. The authorities have heard of safespeed

Oooohhhhh! We say what counts then We have been on USA fora to test the waters .. . They love this site. A Fed cop did say he'd love to "taser me as "darned cat" though" (He pm me to say he not mean it und that he think COAST to be "cool dude . we try it" I will not link. You can find it you like or want. Trolls would be killed on sight . und so far .. 12 points for Claire.. Nul point for lightweight limeys who



We will have to take their test apparently as "aliens" We make decision to do so asap as we need to know their laws/driving styles as we do here in Europe. We believe challenge und safest option too.

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A brief progress report Just returned from my meet with the Highways Agency Winter Team Leader. A useful opener, and many of the above ideas covered. I believe I shared the view that motorists need to be encouraged to do things to take responsibility for their own safety. Have formally asked for answers to other questions which time did not permit me to ask. Most time spent on whether/ how many/why motorists read Severe Weather/ Winter leaflets.

I now need to ask the Forum (+as many of their nearest & dearest + friends, please) the following questions.

During the 2008/9 winter period:
1) Did you see any leaflets advising motorists about winter-driving?
2) At which location(s) did you see such leaflet(s)?
3)Which authority producd the leaflet(s)?
4) What was your opinion about the leaflet(s)?
5)Have you any suggestionsto make about 1)to 4), above?
Many thanks