Safe Speed Forums

Steve - FACT: Those who speed kill more people per year than knifes do. It is possible to despise both types of behaviour as I do.

I always take that type of remark with a pinch of salt on forums...


Well, yes and no. In fact your point is a really good analogy with speeding. At one end of the debate you have people who want to ban all fast driving and knives:



The other end of the debate would argue that blanket legislation tends to curtail the freedom of the safe-but-quick drivers/safer users of knives (young fishermen/boy scouts/etc.), while the real crims get away scot-free because they drive unlicenced cars/live on no-go estates.

Firstly, you need to know the relative exposures otherwise there is no perspective. Only an extreme few people carry knives....

Are you someone else who doesn't know if water is more dangerous than cyanide? (isn't it odd how you've been on at the same time as that other person who also doesn't know...)

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Not really.
Few drivers use the car as an offensive weapon.
Practically all those carrying a knife would use it as a weapon.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Source for that please. IME lots of people carry knives for reasons other than causing bloodshed.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Please justify that statement. After considering how many fishermen, boy scouts, campers, carpet fitters there are in this country.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

I would have thought it was common knowledge that those ho carry knives don't mean well. Granted many (or most) of those don't go out with the intent of causing harm, but that's the only thing a knife is good for. There are other means of self-defence; saying that I can't believe Mace (pepper spray) is illegal in this country.

I would be surprised if anyone truly believed that an instance (journey) of carrying a knife will yield less statistical risk than an instance of exceeding the limit, especially when the highest concentration of the latter is done on the safest roads.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Oh Steve, that argument is worthy of Greenshed who thinks it is common knowledge the Speed Kills. And from the great proponent of proper research and well referenced sources.


No good for:-
peeling an apple
sharpening a pencil
whittling a stick
opening recalcitrant packaging
cutting up food
gutting a fish



Carrying a knife is as harmless as exceeding the speeding in the correct circumstances. I have being doing both for over forty years without hurting anyone

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

It's an offence to carry any knife in public, even if you're not behaving in a threatening manner, and you can face a penalty of two year's imprisonment and a £5,000 fine for doing so.
Under certain circumstances, it's legal to be in possession of a knife in public:
If it's a tool of the trade (i.e. you work in catering or carpentry); But only during your work.
For religious reasons (i.e. a Sikh kirpan);
If it's a penknife (pocket or folding knife) less than three inches long (although it may be considered offensive if carried for the purpose of causing injury or harm).
Saying you are going fishing is not a defence.

Driving a car in public is not an offence; Yet.
I think the average deaths from knife wounds is about 30/year.
Criminal injuries caused by knives are much higher. In my town about two stabbing per week[end].

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

So the majority of knives that are carried are in fact legal.


"it is generally an offence to carry a knife in public without good reason or lawful authority " (from DirectGov)
It is arguable whether carrying a knife for fishing or other outdoor activities is "good reason."



And how many people injured by cars every weekend?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

And just how many of the people who carry knives around in public actually do these activities? At home/work yes, but on a night out? Come on!


Ah, I did wonder why you were so defensive over this. Now I don't doubt you use it responsibly and have no intent of harming anyone, but you have to accept there are people who carry knives solely for reasons less than admirable (none of the reasons you gave).


This is the important part of this sub debate:


How many people drive cars, and how many people carry knives? We already know half the population drives, does half the population carry knives?

This knife debate is meaningless and devoid of perspective without knowledge of the comparative exposures.
Need I bring up my water/cyanide example once again?

FACTS:


RCGB2007: fatal accidents (including police chases) where exceeding speed limit was a contributory factor = 342
Ooh, that's comparable! And that's merely one factor in several (as opposed to being the sole cause)

YouGov/Admiral survey: 82% of drivers admitted to sometimes or frequently exceeding the limit


What do you think that will be for those who carry "sometimes or frequently" (as opposed to 'at least once in 12 months'):
82%, or significantly less than 4% ?

What do you think that will be for the population in general (not just the young):
82%, or significantly less than 'significantly less than' 4% ?


Like I said: perspective is needed.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

I am not in the least bit defensive. I break no law by carrying the knife that I do. But before continuing the debate will you clarify your position. Are you referring to knives in general or to illegal knives in particular?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

The figures given for carrying knives are for all knifes including penknives (41% of the total). I'm assuming the fatals include all knives because there is nothing to suggest otherwise. The subdebate was kicked off by GDS with the general term without differentiation "many youngsters carry knives every day".

Given the figures, GDS's definition of "many" (for 'every day') is arguable, being as it is likely to be a lot less than 1%
edited to add: I’m guessing "many" (!) of these youngsters haven’t been professionally assessed to be competent and responsible enough to become a legitimate driver either

Apologies for my assertion of your defensiveness.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Believe me . we do know if a person carrying a knife around has intentions other than sharpening his pencil or fitting a carpet. The last time I gutted a fish in the open was on a camping holiday where I was allowed to do .. in same way as I used said knife when preparing the bits to char-grill with the fish at the time

By the way GDS .. as a "retired headmaster" - I am sure you are aware of the growing knife culture amongst the young... which has led to some tabloid horror stories in the past. One such incident is one too many. I understand the "pencil sharpener attack" led to some schools not allowing students to have these in school. I would expect a "retired headteacher" to be aware of this.. but perhaps you were the head of your village school and not a tough inner city comprehensive serving a fairly rough population and whose teachers do a very worthy and creditable job overall with these children as many do mature and grow into leading decently productive lives.


We are not talking of legitimate uses of knives here.. most of which activities would be carried out in the safety of fishing clubs/homes etc but of a fairly significant looking knife concealed about the person with intent to use against another. We usually have the intelligence to identify this type .. so you can sleep a bit more easily on this one.

I would expect youngsters in a school to use a knife when eating in the canteen.. in a carpentry/woodwork or similar class under teacher supervsion .. but I would not normally expect a youngster to carry a sharp knife around as the normal routine - apart from perhaps a small pen knife and even then I would be wary.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I see a similarity between carrying and using a knife and being carried-by and using a car. They can both be used responsibly and be of benefit or be used irresponsibly and do harm. They are both potentially dangerous, to state the obvious.

But at least with a car there are infinitely more checks and balances so that, by enlarge, responsible adults only use them. I’m not so sure the same can be said about knives though. If little Johnny wants to carry a Kitchen Devil for the day, quite frankly I assume he’s not going to be peeling spuds with it, or anyone else for that matter...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

We are in danger of thinking that because an artefact can be used to kill it is a weapon. But that is an equation that you knocked firmly on the head when some referred to the motorcar as a weapon. A folding pocket knife, with its corkscrew, bottle open, screwdriver, tweezers etc is a tool and a very valuable tool at that. I would be lost without mine. And so would several customers at the Stockport Station buffet last Saturday when the waitress broke her only corkscrew. She was very pleased to borrow my Swiss Army Knife. until a replacement was found.

When I was a schoolboy, fifty plus years ago, nearly all my contemporaries had a pocket knife, the rich kids a multi blade SAK, poor kids like me an ex service jobby with one blade and a marlin spike (used for removing stones from horses hooves ). It must be the feeling of inferiority engendered in those days that makes me treasur my good SAK today.


Accepted

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Correct. The difference here is the intent doing so entails. No driver (except joyriders) wishes to use their car to do harm in any circumstance. I agree that penknives can be a legitimately useful tool, but the intent on the other 59% who carried non-penknives such as kitchen knives and flick knives - well what do you think?

I fear we're losing sight of the original issue.
With the figures and perspective given, attempting to compare knife crime against one specific technical infringement is mighty misleading.
I made an edit to an earlier post which I shall repeat here:
I’m guessing "many" (!) of these youngsters [who carry knives] haven’t been professionally assessed to be competent and responsible enough to become a legitimate driver either. So on top of everything else, 'apples and oranges' comes to mind!

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Oh...loads.
But I cannot think of a single [reported] case of someone being deliberately injured by a vehicle.
Not in this town.
I can remember one being slashed by a stanley knife (quite legal to carry according to some. But those carrying them are frequently prosecuted)...because I got woken to the door being knocked to tell me my son had been cut open by a waste of space carrying a stanley knife...
He hasn't been cut open by a car yet.....

_________________
The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Well, that depends on how you do it.

I carry a pen knife to open those stubby bottles of shandy that you get at Aldi. I also cut sticks with it, when I'm in the woods. It's got lots of blades - I could even use it to disembowel my enemies!