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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 01:56 
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Anyone any experience of Windows 7 yet?

I am helping a relative choose a netbook, and like the look of the Samsung NC10, which has XP loaded on it.

I am wondering if you can download Windows 7 onto it, and if it is worth the extra money to do so?

The Samsung is £249 with a cash back offer until Dec. 4th.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 04:15 
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I'm running Windows 7 on my desktop and it's probably the first version of Windows I've been happy with out of the box.

I'd go with windows 7 over XP but for me it just isn't right to run Windows on a netbook.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 09:24 
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You could just buy it with no installed operating system. You may then buy the W7 installation discs. That way you get to have a set of the discs instead of having a recovery partition on the hd and having to make your own "recovery discs" (which hardly ever work when you need them).
Or you could buy it with the installed chosen version (W7 loads faster than XP) and insist they throw-in an installation set of W7.
Either way, you NEED the set of installation disc/s.
Or just install linux !

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 09:46 
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As there is no CD/DVD drive, any software would either have to be downloaded, or connected to an external drive which we do not have.

Ah well - maybe they can get an external drive for Christmas! :)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 17:14 
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Homer wrote:
I'm running Windows 7 on my desktop and it's probably the first version of Windows I've been happy with out of the box.

I'd go with windows 7 over XP but for me it just isn't right to run Windows on a netbook.


Likewise -running XP + Win 7 - and Win 7 runs a lot better (even if RC version) .You might find problem with notebook in that Win7 RC (don't know about proper versions) need min of 512 RAM .

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 17:53 
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You don't need an external drive (as such) Most stuff you can either transfer onto, or buy already on, a usb flash disc...you can even make them "boot" discs.
As the thing has no cd/dvd it already has a recovery partition then....so you'll need to either get them to make the back-up disc/s or buy a usb hd or cd/dvd. The plug-in dvd is quite cheap.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 23:53 
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botach wrote:
Homer wrote:
I'm running Windows 7 on my desktop and it's probably the first version of Windows I've been happy with out of the box.

I'd go with windows 7 over XP but for me it just isn't right to run Windows on a netbook.


Likewise -running XP + Win 7 - and Win 7 runs a lot better (even if RC version) .You might find problem with notebook in that Win7 RC (don't know about proper versions) need min of 512 RAM .


The NC10 has 1GB RAM. The full spec is here:

http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/pc-peripherals/notebook-computers/n-series/NP-NC10-KA02UK/index.idx?pagetype=prd_detail&tab=spec&fullspec=F
It has taken me long enough to get the end user to understand how to use Windows.
I couldn't cope with having to teach them Linux! :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 08:13 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
It has taken me long enough to get the end user to understand how to use Windows.
I couldn't cope with having to teach them Linux! :lol:


I must say that I fail to understand the enthusiasm for Linux, other than that it is cheap. I find it a lot harder to use than Windows and a lot harder to get useful help. There is a lot on the web but it does tend to be all very technical , whereas Windows has lots of help at all levels.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 16:38 
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That's because Microsofts plan is to make you think your a thick shit and so BUY their product. Then lock you into their software. <--- simples really isn't it.

Linux assumes you're NOT a thick shit and is free and open to all <-- This is incompatible to MS's business plan.

I'll trust my instincts and say your NOT a Thick shit.

Netbooks are opposite to Microsofts plan as well.

Bigger, Faster = Better. Which means you buy more of their product. Except netbooks are only designed for email, general websurfing and Ch00ns as cheaply as possible and as portable as possible. (By using SSD's instead of Hard Drives weight and battery charge was greatly improved) This is why Asus, who invented the category used Xandros (Linux) on their invention.

Asus wanted Microsoft to extend the life of XP with a cheaper cut down version of XP that would fit on the 4gb SSD in the 701.

Microsoft wanted XP dead (They wanted you all to buy vista which is too big to run on netbooks) and as such wouldn't play ball. So Asus blew a raspberry and shipped with Xandros.
The new netbook category proved highly popular and Steve Ballmer practically burst a blood vessel.

Asus stayed tight-lipped because they had forced Microsoft to return to the table with the deal they had originally asked for. Now Microsoft had to try and claw back "Lost Sales" so... MS campaigns of FUD were then started claiming massive returns because people were unhappy with the shipped Linux.
They also persuaded OEMS to ship with Hard Disks instead of SSD's and made Sales staff point out your getting 160GB instead of 4gb. the reality is windows can't really run very well on the small diskless drives.
BUT... as always, if you can be bothered to look deeper...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/12 ... _netbooks/
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS5214623279.html
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS3251351951.html
Quote:
Some have pointed out that MSI has yet to ship its Linux-based netbook
^^^^ --- Hmmmm OEM's being leant on ?



That's just three links. I had loads of others but have just clean installed Karmic Koala.

The reality is.... It's different. Just the same as when you buy a different Mobile Phone.

The killer thing about Linux on Netbooks though is not needing anti Malware/Trojan/Virus checkers which slow an already slow machine down and that's before typical windows BitRot sets in.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 20:04 
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The killer thing about Linux on Netbooks though is not needing anti Malware/Trojan/Virus checkers


Why is that?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 21:44 
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You can buy a dvd housing on ebay like this and donate an old dvd drive to it. the power pins are a bit fragile though.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 21:59 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
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The killer thing about Linux on Netbooks though is not needing anti Malware/Trojan/Virus checkers


Why is that?

Quote:
Permissions on Linux make such tribute unnecessary. Without quibbling over the definitions of viruses and trojans, I tell them that neither can execute on your machine unless you explicitly give them permission to do so.

Permissions on Linux are universal. They cover three things you can do with files: read, write, and execute. Not only that, they come in three levels: for the root user, for the individual user who is signed in, and for the rest of the world. Typically, software that can impact the system as a whole requires root privileges to run.

Microsoft designed Windows to enable outsiders to execute software on your system. The company justifies that design by saying it enriches the user experience if a Web site can do "cool" things on your desktop. It should be clear by now that the only people being enriched by that design decision are those who make a buck providing additional security or repairing the damage to systems caused by it.

Malware in Windows Land is usually spread by email clients, browser bits, or IM clients, which graciously accept the poisoned fruit from others, then neatly deposit it on their masters' systems, where malware authors know it will likely be executed and do their bidding -- without ever asking permission.

Some malware programs require that you open an attachment. Others don't even require that user error. By hook or by crook, malware on Windows often gets executed, infecting the local system first, then spreading itself to others. What a terrible neighborhood. I'm glad I don't live there.

On Linux, there is built-in protection against such craft. Newly deposited files from your email client or Web browser are not given execute privileges. Cleverly renaming executable files as something else doesn't matter, because Linux and its applications don't depend on file extensions to identify the properties of a file, so they won't mistakenly execute malware as they interact with it.


http://www.linux.com/news/software/applications/8261-note-to-new-linux-users-no-antivirus-needed

My linux-equipped laptop (ex-vista) (10 minute boot-up) now boots in a little over 30 seconds. From off.
It has all open-source software which is as good as windows (if not better)
It took about 3-4 days to get it sorted (vista never worked well on the machine anyway...so slow and prone to locking).
Now it is much faster...much....and runs everything that I had on the vista based machine....even iplayer.

In fact it all sorted so well that my desktop is now dual-boot...and I use the linux installation for secure applications that I always hated using on anything with widnows on.

The laptop even has a mobile broadband dongle working with it !

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 23:48 
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Permissions on Linux make such tribute unnecessary. Without quibbling over the definitions of viruses and trojans, I tell them that neither can execute on your machine unless you explicitly give them permission to do so.


Which the typical user just does.

Quote:
Permissions on Linux are universal. They cover three things you can do with files: read, write, and execute. Not only that, they come in three levels: for the root user, for the individual user who is signed in, and for the rest of the world. Typically, software that can impact the system as a whole requires root privileges to run.


True. Windows achieves the same thing using Access Control Lists which give you finer control. Some new Linux filesystems are moving towards ACLs rather than the old system described here

Quote:
Microsoft designed Windows to enable outsiders to execute software on your system. The company justifies that design by saying it enriches the user experience if a Web site can do "cool" things on your desktop. It should be clear by now that the only people being enriched by that design decision are those who make a buck providing additional security or repairing the damage to systems caused by it.


This was true for home versions of Windows up to Windows ME. With the launch of XP (and earlier versions of Windows NT) they adopted the concepts of admin and "normal" users. Unfortunately doing so broke an awful lot of applications because they were written assuming they had full control of everything, forcing MS to make users admin by default lest everyone go "oh, XP is crap, nothing works on it". With Vista MS pushed the issue a lot harder, introducing UAC to throw up a promp every time an app tried to do something that required admin rights. This was not a security measure it was deliberately intended to annoy people, highlighting badly written apps that really should have been sorted in the 8 years since XP came out. Linux has the advantage here in that it has used this model from the start and thus 99% of linux apps are designed for it, however it is false to claim that MS deliberately want to enable outsiders to run stuff on your system.

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Malware in Windows Land is usually spread by email clients, browser bits, or IM clients, which graciously accept the poisoned fruit from others, then neatly deposit it on their masters' systems, where malware authors know it will likely be executed and do their bidding -- without ever asking permission.


All of these programs (well maybe not some particularly badly written IM clients) these days ask your permission before saving or running attachments, and throw up warning messages if the files are executable. None of this stops idiot users from just clicking OK because they want to see the awesome free screensaver that some random bloke in Nigeria just sent them.

Quote:
Some malware programs require that you open an attachment. Others don't even require that user error. By hook or by crook, malware on Windows often gets executed, infecting the local system first, then spreading itself to others. What a terrible neighborhood. I'm glad I don't live there.


Often called "drive by downloads". All browsers are vulnerable to these from time to time, even Firefox has had it's fair share of them, and increasing as more and more malware authors target Firefox due to it's increasing market share.

Quote:
On Linux, there is built-in protection against such craft. Newly deposited files from your email client or Web browser are not given execute privileges. Cleverly renaming executable files as something else doesn't matter, because Linux and its applications don't depend on file extensions to identify the properties of a file, so they won't mistakenly execute malware as they interact with it.


This is true, you have to explicitly allow the executable to run, however once you have convinced the user that the executable is worth running you can just include instructions on how to do this. Plenty of malware for Windows does this already, instructing the user to click through all the ActiveX warnings that pop up and ticking that they trust software from ScammersInc or whatever.

The main think that keeps Linux secure is the quality of it's users, not the quality of the OS.


Don't get me wrong. I like Linux and until very recently used it as my main OS (I have switched to Win7) but if Linux suddenly got the home user market share that Windows has, we'd see just as many exploits and malware as we do currently on Windows. But don't worry, Mac users are going to get a rude awakening on this issue long before Linux does. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 01:07 
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In fact it all sorted so well that my desktop is now dual-boot.


If Linux is so good why do you need another operating system?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 01:14 
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The main think that keeps Linux secure is the quality of it's users, not the quality of the OS.


And the fact that there are so few users that it isn't worth the hackers while to expend much effort on penetrating it.

Talking to many enthusiastic Linux users in academia I get the impression that there are two reasons for preferring it - it costs nothing and it isn't Microsoft. I am convinced that if Microsoft offered Linux all these enthusiasts would declare that it was useless

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 01:36 
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A friend and I have Netbooks (Asus 901) loaded with XP. I'm able to surf in ~25 seconds from off.
He tried his with Linux. OK it took him quite a while to get things sorted, but that's to be expected. We both played with it and couldn't really find anything overly good to say about it. We both remained with XP (no we're not M$ fanbois).
However, I am interested in that Linux Live thingy.

Jomumuk: Fista isn't really a fair benchmark for comparison.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 08:27 
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Linux assumes you're NOT a thick shit and is free and open to all <-- This is incompatible to MS's business plan.


It is hardly a fair indictment of Microsoft's (or any other company's) business plan that their product is not free and is patented or copyright, is it. And, of course, a large proportion of PC users are, if not "thick s***s"[edited x MODS], not very computer literate.

I have wondered why, when Linux is so much cheaper than MS and - according to its proponents - so much better, Microsoft have the lion's share of the market. I am sure that if the "Free Car Foundation" were giving away small, high performance cars, then no amount of marketing by Ford would continue to sell Fiestas. But, perhaps they would - if you had to assemble the FCF car yourself :twisted:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 09:21 
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Steve wrote:
A friend and I have Netbooks (Asus 901) loaded with XP. I'm able to surf in ~25 seconds from off.
He tried his with Linux. OK it took him quite a while to get things sorted, but that's to be expected. We both played with it and couldn't really find anything overly good to say about it. We both remained with XP (no we're not M$ fanbois).
However, I am interested in that Linux Live thingy.

Jomumuk: Fista isn't really a fair benchmark for comparison.

The 901 has sdd has it not ?
So you would be surprised if it did not boot faster.
The laptop came pre-loaded with vista, which rapidly got dumped. I intended to load xp-pro...but decided to go over to linux (ub9.04)...I'd played with it in the past but got fed-up with having to consult loads of "forums" to get basic information....9.04 worked immediately.
Why dual-boot on the desktop ?
Two reasons really....the laptop goes away with me and doesn't get used much at home....and I do not use windows for any banking or secure issues anymore....
And you're right about the permissions that "everyone just clicks ok on"
Except that I don't. If the "a program needs your permission to run" pops up, it had better be one that I called or it just gets dumped.
Anyway....I needed something else to do when annoying people on forums gets boring...that and my laptop battery gets to half charge before it loads windows...and no, I'm not going the sdd route. Too expensive and time-related degradation a bit too apparent.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 09:54 
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jomukuk wrote:
The 901 has sdd has it not ?
So you would be surprised if it did not boot faster.

That is with the crappy first generation JMicron based SSD (they have big problems).
The linux install wasn't any faster (or any more responsive).

Someone recently asked me to look at a laptop with Fista installed, which very unresponsive and also took 10 mins to boot. All I did was a hard drive surface scan and repair (which found and fixed many errors) to make it responsive and boot in less than 1 minute.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:21 
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It all makes no difference to me.
I'm fed-up with all the crap I have to put up with in windows. XP had gone the route of 3 service packs and endless uncountable upgrades for endless uncountable reasons...and W7 will go the same way.
My version of XP(pro) (legal) failed to be recognised as such....needing endless phone calls to get it to be recognised...to enable the endless upgrades to be started: again.
No, I'm well out of windows. The desktop will go the way the laptop went soon. In any case, my 386sx (dos) boots faster than any of them !
Oh:
http://www.tuxradar.com/content/vista-windows-7-ubuntu-904-and-910-boot-speed-comparison

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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