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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 20:16 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Indeed - I would think taking a lot longer in some instances to traverse the section will increase journey times no end. The if some think that they are over the speed they will drive about within the zone waiting to an approximate time (probably way over) to leave.
As drivers are becoming less skilled, this and many other problems will start to arise, like inattention and frustration leading to many more SI incidents, then that will lead to road blockages and so cars will have to go alternate possibly longer routes. As more cars will have less chance of 'flowing' more cars are likely to be in the queue, and so greater numbers of vehicles involved in incidents and more delayed too.
I suppose if you bought two cars you could have one inside and one outside the 'zone' ! Perhaps some of those car pool car businesses will thrive inside the zones !
Another article on the Cambridgshire S3 section - here.

Alternatively they could just drive within the limits as they are required to do. Wouldn't that be the most likely scenario?


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 20:47 
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GreenShed wrote:
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Indeed - I would think taking a lot longer in some instances to traverse the section will increase journey times no end. The if some think that they are over the speed they will drive about within the zone waiting to an approximate time (probably way over) to leave.
As drivers are becoming less skilled, this and many other problems will start to arise, like inattention and frustration leading to many more SI incidents, then that will lead to road blockages and so cars will have to go alternate possibly longer routes. As more cars will have less chance of 'flowing' more cars are likely to be in the queue, and so greater numbers of vehicles involved in incidents and more delayed too.
I suppose if you bought two cars you could have one inside and one outside the 'zone' ! Perhaps some of those car pool car businesses will thrive inside the zones !
Another article on the Cambridgshire S3 section - here.

Alternatively they could just drive within the limits as they are required to do. Wouldn't that be the most likely scenario?


that would be fine, but people keep lowering the limits. Last year I was a saint if I drove along the A127 at 69.99999999999999999999mph,but this year I am a reckless maniac that should be locked up for my own safety :roll: , now I can break the speed limit on that dual carriageway in 2nd gear. Mental.

How are your speed cameras? Are they all dried out yet :lol: ?


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 20:48 
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GreenShed wrote:
Alternatively they could just drive within the limits as they are required to do. Wouldn't that be the most likely scenario?

Ideally that would be a best way. Unfortunately, misleading claims from folks such as the SCPs (like RTTM) have corrupted perceptions of speed, and in turn, how limits should be set.

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 23:03 
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Quote:
Alternatively they could just drive within the limits as they are required to do. Wouldn't that be the most likely scenario?


No doubt 85% of the drivers in this country are wrong then?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:03 
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graball wrote:
Quote:
Alternatively they could just drive within the limits as they are required to do. Wouldn't that be the most likely scenario?


No doubt 85% of the drivers in this country are wrong then?

Not sure what you mean by your comment here.

I am aware of what the 85th percentile is but get the idea you do not.

If the 85th percentile speed is say, 30 mph, then that would be the speed at which 85% of the drivers drive at or below. To get this speed value then there are usually a very large number of drivers in the sample that are below rather than at the 85th percentile speed.

If you have understood this then I do not understand your comment.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:04 
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Steve wrote:
GreenShed wrote:
Alternatively they could just drive within the limits as they are required to do. Wouldn't that be the most likely scenario?

Ideally that would be a best way. Unfortunately, misleading claims from folks such as the SCPs (like RTTM) have corrupted perceptions of speed, and in turn, how limits should be set.

In my experience it has made no difference whatsoever; where would you be getting your experience of this?


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:46 
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GreenShed wrote:
Steve wrote:
Ideally that would be a best way. Unfortunately, misleading claims from folks such as the SCPs (like RTTM) have corrupted perceptions of speed, and in turn, how limits should be set.

In my experience it has made no difference whatsoever; where would you be getting your experience of this?

Someone who is connected with the SCPs would say exactly that.
The majority of drivers are calling for higher speed limits on roads which are the safest (motorways); they are being denied even though there are obvious benefits from doing so. The SCPs are happy to continue to misrepresent the effectiveness of their tools (RTTM, BOS, long-term trends) implying that it is always the case that 'speed kills' and their approach of limiting such speeds are the most effective.
The SCPs have skewed perceptions, done based on their untruths, in an attempt to ensure their own revenue stream.

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:47 
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Greenshed wrote:
If the 85th percentile speed is say, 30 mph, then that would be the speed at which 85% of the drivers drive at or below. To get this speed value then there are usually a very large number of drivers in the sample that are below rather than at the 85th percentile speed.

Which means that there are a large number of people forming their own opinion as to what is safe, which as you have stated in another thread is a bad thing!


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 20:39 
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graball wrote:
Greenshed wrote:
Alternatively they could just drive within the limits as they are required to do. Wouldn't that be the most likely scenario?
No doubt 85% of the drivers in this country are wrong then?

No, my point is that (as dicussed in another thread) approx 85% of drivers admit to exceeding the speed limit at some point or another....so are 85% of the nations drivers (and they are just the honest ones) all wrong?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 21:54 
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graball wrote:
No, my point is that (as dicussed in another thread) approx 85% of drivers admit to exceeding the speed limit at some point or another....so are 85% of the nations drivers (and they are just the honest ones) all wrong?



Possibly.

An individual driver driving down a road is in no position to judge the road as a whole. the whole system's got to be looked at, not "I went down that road at 80mph and didn't hit anything so that must be safe".


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 22:00 
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Quote:
An individual driver driving down a road is in no position to judge the road as a whole.

Erm yes they are, the driver must be in control at all times, if not they are driving without due care!

Quote:
I went down that road at 80mph and didn't hit anything so that must be safe"

Almost as ridiculous as saying "I went down the road at 20mph and hit a child, therefore 20mph is not safe!"


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 22:01 
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weepej wrote:
An individual driver driving down a road is in no position to judge the road as a whole. the whole system's got to be looked at, not "I went down that road at 80mph and didn't hit anything so that must be safe".

So what are you suggesting? Should all drivers always use the posted speed limit as their only guide, or should they also use their judgement to determine what is safe for the conditions, and that road engineers ensure the roads aren't deceptive such that reliable judgements are made?

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 22:55 
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Steve wrote:
Should all drivers always use the posted speed limit as their only guide, or should they also use their judgement to determine what is safe for the conditions


They should use their judgement, but not exceed the posted limit. Stated explicity in the highway code.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 23:30 
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I don't dispute that; you missed my point:
weepej wrote:
They should use their judgement ...

Wasn't your earlier point that "An individual driver driving down a road is in no position to judge the road as a whole"? How do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory statements? Are they in that position or not?

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 00:02 
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weepej wrote:
wrote:An individual driver driving down a road is in no position to judge the road as a whole. the whole system's got to be looked at, not "I went down that road at 80mph and didn't hit anything so that must be safe".

so who judges a safe speed for that road, if not the driver on the day? Someone in the council office who says 40MPH is ok?.....even when it's two inches deep in snow or covered in black ice???? Are you gonna drive at 40MPH in those conditions because the lolly says so....after all you are not fit to judge it by your own admission....is this why Britains roads are so unsafe now with people of your attitude driving them....so sad!!!!

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 00:06 
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weepej wrote:
wrote:An individual driver driving down a road is in no position to judge the road as a whole

No EXPERIENCED driver judges the road as a whole, only the immediate few hundred yards ahead that is visible.....a lollipop judges the road as a whole...what makes the most sense, a human experienced driver judging the road ahead, that he can see, for the conditions at the time or a lollipop placed there by someone, who may never have even driven the road....I know who I trust most.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 00:15 
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weepej wrote:
They should use their judgement, but not exceed the posted limit. Stated explicity in the highway code.


Spoken with the naivity of someone who has just passed their driving test.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 00:26 
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graball wrote:
Spoken with the naivity of someone who has just passed their driving test.


You mean somebody who isn't minded to breaking the law?


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 00:46 
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But law is only a matter of time and location.
And we are ruled by people who would have us obey the minutiae of law, while ignoring every detail of law themselves.
They send troops to invade a foreign country on false evidence and they also fiddle taxes and expenses to their advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 02:44 
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graball wrote:
weepej wrote:
An individual driver driving down a road is in no position to judge the road as a whole

No EXPERIENCED driver judges the road as a whole, only the immediate few hundred yards ahead that is visible.....a lollipop judges the road as a whole...what makes the most sense, a human experienced driver judging the road ahead, that he can see, for the conditions at the time or a lollipop placed there by someone, who may never have even driven the road....I know who I trust most.

Speed Limits are required to be clear and help to provide a predictable expectation of potential hazards along each road, the road's style and appearance also goes towards helping road users estimate road expectations.
Whilst road users should drive /ride so that they can stop in the distance that they can see to be clear this is coupled with a host of additional road and surrounding area and environmental information that all helps the road user to establish conditions and help anticipate the road conditions and expectations.
The attempt should always be to try to safely look as far ahead as you can and then 'scan back down the road' (in approximation and conditions allowing) and scan about (etc), and during these scans we assess and make risk management and condition judgment decisions.
Being safe and not having any accident is of paramount importance for every trip and every mile that we travel.
When road speeds are set and conditions imposed by authorities they take on this 'road style guidance' that imposes set preconceived ideas to all road users. When this concept is altered it sets up unknowns and changes the balances thus leaving road users less prepared and having to work harder to fully and properly assess all road environments.
So when road speeds start to become arbitrary the balance and predictability is altered and the road user has a hard job to judge and manage risk as well and hence why it is so very important that safe and appropriate speeds are set initially and then all later enforcement is proportional and also appropriate.

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