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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 20:00 
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Ray Massey Daily Mail wrote:
Drivers face speed-camera blitz as more road limits are reduced to 20mph
By Ray Massey - Last updated at 4:58 PM on 16th December 2009

Motorists across Britain face a new speed-camera blitz under Government plans announced today to dramatically widen the use of 20mph limits.
Whole neighbourhoods will be given 20mph limit in a plan intended to dramatically reduce casualties among pedestrians and cyclists. Research shows that one in 40 pedestrians struck by a car at 20mph dies compared to one in five at 30mph.

The way to their widespread use across Britain was paved today when road safety minister Paul Clark announced that 20mph zones must no longer be accompanied by speed humps or other 'traffic calming' measures.
Safety first: The 20mph road plan intends to dramatically reduce casualties among pedestrians and cyclists
The Government wants to encourage councils to introduce the 20mph schemes into residential streets and other roads where cycle and pedestrian traffic is high, such as around schools, shops and parks.
The 'no-humps' plan follows a city-wide trial in Portsmouth, where early indications are that casualties have dipped by 15 per cent. Islington in north London is also making use of 20mph limits across the borough.
The schemes are likely to be enforced by 'average speed' cameras, which monitor a car to calculate if the driver has broken the speed limit by calculating its average speed between two or more cameras.
A 'd-cam,' a road traffic speed camera which requires no film, does not flash, and can photograph the driver as well as the numberplate
Wireless or 'wi-fi' cameras at key entry and exit roads log the vehicle's number plate and 'talk' to each other over the airwaves. New technology allowing them to communicate by wireless internet dramatically cuts the cost of the technology, making it much cheaper for councils to install the 20mph limit.
If the car's average speed is four miles per hour above the 20mph limit, the driver will get an automatic speeding ticket of 3 penalty points and a £60 fine through the post.
Mr Clark said:'Too many pedestrians and cyclists - including many children - are still being killed or hurt on the roads around their homes and schools.
'We have seen that 20mph zones with traffic calming measures can make a real difference to the safety of local roads.'
Ministers say many 20mph zones will be 'self-policing'.
They are also considering allowing more widespread use of variable 20mph signs, which will tell motorists at busy times of day - such as during the school run - that the limit is '20mph when lights flash' .
In a letter to local councils, Mr Clark said that while the Transport Department does not explicitly 'advise' the use of average speed cameras to police the limits, he notes: 'Transport for London is working with some London boroughs piloting the implementation of some 20mh zones where average speed cameras will play a roll in enforcing the limit.
'The evaluation of these pilots will show whether this approach has any benefits over existing measures and whether highway authorities may want to consider whether it is appropriate for their own areas.'
His letter adds:'Evidence from the use of average speed cameras shows that they are effective in reducing speeds over longer stretches of roads.'
AA president Edmund King said: 'We need to introduce a broad degree of common sense when dealing with speed restrictions. What we don't want to see is local authorities adopting an over-zealous approach. '
A series of councils have already expressed an interest in installing the 20mph average speed-zone, including Camden, Southwark, and Waltham Forest, all in London, and Plymouth and Norwich.
Speed-Check, the company behind the new system, said that there is no limit to the area which the cameras can cover. The aim is to stop drivers slowing down at a conventional fixed-site camera and then swiftly speeding up again - known as 'surfing'.
Rob Gifford of the Parliamentary Advisory Council on Transport Safety welcomed the Government's commitment new 20mph zones but accepted: 'Councils are bound to take up cameras if they think it is the only way to ensure compliance.'
The new 20mph zone policy is part of the Government's road safety review aimed at reducing casualties.
As part of this, ministers have already announced in April that drivers face being banned after just two speeding offences with penalty points being doubled to six points for drivers who exceed the speed limit by 15mph in a 20mph or 30mph area, or by 20mph in higher speed zones.
About 2 million drivers a year currently receive speeding tickets.
The Government also renewed its call to local councils to review speed limits on rural roads by 2011.
It wants councils to consider reducing the 60mph speed limit - possibly to 50mph - on the most accident-prone single-carriageway A and B roads.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z0Zsb9i0JD

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 21:14 
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Quote:
Research shows that one in 40 pedestrians struck by a car at 20mph dies compared to one in five at 30mph.

The 'no-humps' plan follows a city-wide trial in Portsmouth, where early indications are that casualties have dipped by 15 per cent.

Given that this is an urban setting (where speeds are already slow and the plentiful pedestrians account for a large portion of the fatality pie), I would expect a reduction of more like 87% within these areas, so what is preventing the gain we're entitled to?
Coincidentally, I recently read a report stating that traffic displacement had lead to a reduction of traffic within these zones by ...

...yes you guessed it, by 15% :lol:

Quote:
Mr Clark said:'Too many pedestrians and cyclists - including many children - are still being killed or hurt on the roads around their homes and schools.

Yes, 86% of teenage/child fatalities have their own error (such as failing to look) as a contributory factor; so it makes perfect sense that we allow them to further abrogate their responsibility (as well as that of their parents) by continuing to not teach them how to interact with other road users, and instead invoke ever sterner measures on drivers.

Quote:
They are also considering allowing more widespread use of variable 20mph signs, which will tell motorists at busy times of day - such as during the school run - that the limit is '20mph when lights flash' .

Note the wording: variable signs, not variable limits.
If they mean the limit will be variable (20/30 when appropriate) then they can get support for their scheme, but I wonder if only the activity of the sign is variable.

Quote:
Rob Gifford of the Parliamentary Advisory Council on Transport Safety welcomed the Government's commitment new 20mph zones but accepted: 'Councils are bound to take up cameras if they think it is the only way to ensure compliance.'

It is not the only way; that perception has been wrongfully portrayed by SCPs.
Another obvious way is to make limits reasonable (to prevent needless criminalisation). The few who still feel the need to exceed a fair speed limit can be dealt with immediately by trafpol, even if the offender took steps to circumvent detection and identification (SCP staff will never admit to understanding this)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 04:27 
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I'm trying here to say something "clever" to say to the SCP's, and their supporters et al.

Speaking personally, I DON'T need a speed gun to recognise a "Dangerous driver" when I see one. I see them every day. Many, are NOT speeding at all! But are more dangerous than a racing drunk!.......If you really want to reduce accidents as you all claim, then you SCP's need to get out more. Yes, there are "racers" out there! and they need to be stopped, But transgressing an arbitary lowered limit (so as to max out profits) without regard to conditions is counter productive and is going to fail.

It's simply a result of the semi "privatisation" of road policing of recent years where maximum profits are the real driving force. Speaking personally, I couldn't lower myself enough to take the pieces of eight that they offer!

The longer it goes on, the more that people will see the cynical approach of this and the shallowness of the people who enforce it. .Not to mention it's eventual ineffectiveness at producing the desired results, save only by your own manufactured figures.

Hoping I got through the mist of brainwashing.........Draco.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 06:35 
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They are obviously planning to enforce as many of the 20mph as they can.
They have convinced themselves that speed alone is the key to reducing accidents.
They see that speed is an easy measurement to enforce a specific value and therefore easily 'targeted and enforced'.

The fact that good driving behaviour brings about safe roads this concept is lost on them they are not even trying to listen. They don't seem to care less. They are 'doing' their job and find facts to support it.
The CPS and the Government must be held to account. A public enquiry is required her as major injustices are being arried out every day on road users that are otherwise travelling safely.
Good driver behaviours are key to road safety.
Drivers that pay attention and engage in the task at had and try to anticipate and recognise hazards early, and travel so that they can stop in teh distance that they can see to be clear, are typically the safest drivers / riders.
They have implied that speed alone will make you safe and this is wrong. Appropriate speed suitable for the conditions, will help each road user stop in the distance that they can see to be clear and this will help keep them safe.
Enforcement of 20 mph by SPECS3 or the d-cam shown in this press article, will cause many problem and the worse problem is that it wil make road users alter their search patterns and make them easily distraction and frustrated. This will lead to inattention and distraction and this will result in more accidents not less. Pedestrians may feel a false sense of security and that is very concerning as more mistakes are liekly to be made.
An initial report from the dft shows that he average accident severity in a 30mph was 13% and in the 20mph 17% after the Portsmouth first phase.
There is more .... but that may help you Draco - or contact me more directly ...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:04 
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I'll just drive at 20 in a 20 limit.
I may even drive at 20 in a 30 limit, if I consider that 20 is more appropriate than 30...
Don't let yourselves be persuaded that this is "road safety" or "cash cow" thinking.
Wait for the 40mph bus lanes with 20mph "other" lanes, then things may get clearer.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 14:17 
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jomukuk wrote:
I'll just drive at 20 in a 20 limit.
I may even drive at 20 in a 30 limit, if I consider that 20 is more appropriate than 30...

As will I (endeavour to), as I'm sure many others here will too. However, there is a potential problem with all this.

If this is rolled out as I suspect it will be, a great many people will question the necessity of many of the reductions, therefore resulting with reduced respect for those kinds of speed limits, resulting with less predictable behaviour in those environments - that's not safer!
The few who want to travel at the speed they want will become even less predictable to other road users, and the cameras wont stop them.

I'm not against 20 limits or their enforcement; I am against needless application of them and I will bet money that will happen to a large degree.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 16:25 
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jomukuk wrote:
I'll just drive at 20 in a 20 limit.
I may even drive at 20 in a 30 limit, if I consider that 20 is more appropriate than 30...
Don't let yourselves be persuaded that this is "road safety" or "cash cow" thinking.
Wait for the 40mph bus lanes with 20mph "other" lanes, then things may get clearer.


I often travel at 5 - 8 mph in my local 30mph due to conditions and choice.
When conditions allow it maybe 30 (on dash speedo) or 20mph or 25mph but it is MY choice to choose the best and most appropriate speed for the conditions.
Although you say 'I will just drive at 20mph' have you ever done this when conditions are suitable for 30mph ? And then when one drives at 30mph we may make errors and accidentally might drift and got at 36 or so .... then drop for conditions and so on - it is a free choice.
WHEN we are told that the maximum speed can ONLY be 20mph (24mph max - 10%+2) ceiling, but conditions would otherwise allow for a greater figure AND within that enforced 'zone' there are all the other drivers and riders all jostling their up and down ratio of speed assessments then the travellign speed is highly likely to revert down to the lowest common denominator speed i.e. possibly 15mph and consider now 'across London' or 'Norwich' or Manchester etc and the realisation that this will be for mile after mile, of roads whether 3am or 9am.
[Following not directed at YOU - just 'one']....
Your responsibility to set an appropriate speed has been extinguished. Your ability to choose a free and sensible travelling speed is extinguished.
Your automatic assessment to choose will start to fade in doing this automatically in time substituted by a desire only to drive / ride to a set speed.
Your concentration is likely to lessen along with your attention and you may become easily distracted to do 'anything' than this boring journey. Your level of frustration is likely to rise greatly and we will see many start to take highly and ever more dubious overtakes.
So 'Just' will become less easy and your responsibility lessens. This will effect all road users when they exit these areas and we are likely to see psychological reactions such as zooming away, from the sheer and utter pointlessness and pent up frustration and hate for the system.
Others might then try to point out that these road users are the one's targeted anyway - yet they were all likely to have been normal law abiding 'standard' road users before.
Frustration of pointless systems can make even the most placid person frustrated at some point.
What happen in an emergency - how much fighting will you have to do to prove yourself innocent - would a sick animal emergency be 'worthy' of a breaking the 20mph limit ? Will we find that this is a draconian measure to try to pave the way for ISA, as some 'blessed relief' that they no longer even have to think about the 'speed' even ?
What an appalling and contempt way to treat all road users !
What an appalling lack of understanding basic road safety !
I am sure this will lead to more SI accidents not less. The false sense of security of these areas might imply.
With 'home zone' areas (where 20mph is also the limit), there is an impression that pedestrians take a total priority, ad that too will confuse any safety message further !
I think they are playing a very serious game and people's lives will suffer.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 18:42 
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As a van driver I am used to driving slower than other traffic. On a s/c road I can only drive at 50 max....and 60 on d/c.
Never mind the curses from others....
Trucks fare worse.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 19:14 
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So do you try to mitigate their frustration - like have a 50 max on the back of your van (helping to educate and remind car users that you have a reduced limit ?) or pull over when you can and allow long queues to pass? (Or are you stopping regularly that this negates this?
Do you feel 'hardened' to not being able to change many positions/incidents that you face, and being unable to alter or change to help other road users ?

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