Safe Speed Forums

So I made my journey from oxford back to Essex last night and once on the m25 there is a section on the western length which is down to 50 with average speed cameras due to roadworks.

For most of this I was doing 40-45, however whilst trying to keep up with traffic I looked down and realised I was on 57! which made me panic like hell and broke immeadiately. I believe I had been doing that for up to around 20 seconds.

Was just wondered how far specs cameras are apart usually? I sometimes see an uneven number of the cameras overall so do they take photos of you from the first specs tro the last? If so will I be ok as I was doing around 40 for the rest of the duration.

One curiousity was that while doing around 49/50 there were constantly cars going past me that must have been doing 55-60 at least. Do the specs not work at night or something? Even when I had gone up to around 56/57 I was still getting people beside me as I was keeping up with them.

-Thanks

I wouldn't worry too much - If you've been caught there isn't much you can do about it anyway!
Chances are your mechanical dashboard speedo (I assume that's what you were staring at) is overreading; that's very likely considering you were keeping up with traffic (who might have been using the more accurate GPS speedo system).
Given the camera trigger threshold very likely won't be below 57 (for a 50 limit) I would say you should be OK.
Added to that, a transgression of only '20 seconds' isn't likely to be significant given the typical distance between these average cameras, so your average speed between them will be even lower.

SPECS cameras work fine at night.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

What is the typical distance betwene the Cameras?

There were lots of seats of them but it didnt seem like an even number. do they take it from the first til the last? or from each set?

Also yes it was my dashboard. My gps read 51 - is it normal for the speedo to be up to 10% out? I thought maybe the sat nav was wrong.

I have heard that they don't work in darkness on unlit roads such as the A616. But that could be wrong...

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

That was also my understanding. If they don't work in the dark, what will happen to the environment when he have to keep the lights on so the speed cameras work? We are all doomed!

SPECS provide their own illumination via internal or nearby Infra-Red lamps/LED arrays. You usually can't see this light, but you can sometimes see a deep red glow if you get close enough in darkness, like those for the cameras used in a cinema to detect pirates.

The retro-reflective properties of number plates means only a little illumination is needed for the camera to read a plate.
However, the "overview camera" (if used) could be stuffed!

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

I believe SPECS now has approval to enforce between all consecutive cameras, meaning a continuous strip of enforced mini-zones - the "worst case" (depending on point of view).
Dunno the typical distance between them.


What you see is quite normal.
Sat Navs are usually quite accurate (when maintaining a constant speed, on a straight roads without an incline). Speedos are rarely accurate and almost always over-read, by up to 10%+6.25mph (a lot).

51 on the GPS in a 50 limit is absolutely fine as far as any cameras are concerned (although you are still technically breaking the law). Those drivers passing you likely know this already.

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Here's a photo I took, using an IR enabled digicam, of the SPECS entry cameras J2 of the M3 southbound about 2 years ago - while they were 'temporary'



You can clearly see the emission from the IR lamps.

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I remem,ber the other question I wanted to ask now.

All down the motoerway where incidents were but cleared or where they were there are these flashing signs that say a speed such as '50' or 40' and have flashing dots around them.

I take it these are advisory speeds where there may be incidents as there was nothing there and noone was doing that speed. Im assuming they are not enforced ones?

Do you know which ones I mean?

This is an example of a common advisory speed limit sign:

You know this is advisory because there is no red ring around the number. These are not enforced.

Numbers with a red ring around it are commands and are mandatory limits:


Police are relatively relaxed when enforcing mandatory motorway limits (well the great majority of drivers say those limits are too low); however, one can expect harsher treatment if that mandatory limit is transgressed when a lower advisory limit is active.

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In our experience ... und I used to drive quite often to HQ ( a mere 270 plus mile or so) from Cumbria und both Ted und selbst used to commute many miles until our move to Tucson (und now we get much more family time as commutes are much shorter for us und the drive ist rather interesting .. as it on a long FAST straight which our Mercs over there quite enjoy.. despite the shockingly low speed limit }


Anyway ..after digressing .. .... in our experience ...

We have travelled on umpteen road with SPECS .. the last one being the M62 the other day as ranted over...und

[i]There ist not fixed distance between them. They all vary with some having just one at start of roadworks with its partner camera placed near end of the long roadworks .. example reported by Ted's sister Julia was the M56 before the exit to North Wales (M53/A55????) way back in 2005 with three-four similar set -ups seen by us on the M6/M5/M1 respectively over journeys taken between 2004-2009.


Do not be fooled into thinking these just work in pairs... they check the average speed along the entire route... from SPEC ONE to TWO to THREE etc to the FINAL ONE. They do not measure between each one.. they will measure average speed between each pairing und along the ENTIRITY of however many there are... Our tame magistrates have been on Bench for disputes of this nature und the persons sadly lost on the points of law as applied.

I thus make the point that with SPECS in particular - folk out there have to be very careful und apply COAST literally with foot well und truly gently on the "loud pedal".

It ist of course pefectly possible to keep a steady gentle in the flow. As far as we are aware - they have always measured the entire length - especially those with the ODD number of cameras along the section.

What we found particulary frustrating on the M62 were the "Camera Not In Use" signs which were obliterated by other road furniture und everyone slamming on the anchors when they saw them which suggest that folk still do not understand how these cams work und thus make life more dangerous for all out there



The SatNav speedo und the RA/Pogo/origin etc speedos are all a lot more accurate than the speedo in your car .. und this also include the so-called "calibrated speedo" in a plodmobile as these would still be around 3 mph adrift by comparison to the GPS version. (We have been busy testing on track over the years with a variety of our family's collection of toys und we find a modern car (on NORMAL TYRES - NOT TRACK ONES) with a computer on board which control the speedo on the dash will be out by 3 mph against the GPS one across the range. We did find that WINTER tyres did affect the in-car speedo reading further by about 1-2 mph


We did not do these tests "under lab conditions" as such as we had not officially recorded this in front of an independent third party.. but mocked up as if in lab with "control measures" und so was. Besides it was our fun time .. we are wearing "anoraks" ...

But at 51 mph ....you would not be likely to be done for this under the so-called "tolerance" system..

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I wonder if there can be a defence if the advisory ist there but they have not switched off? I go off on drive last year when I was conducting trials in Manchester... und had miles of an "advisory" along the M6 (empty-ish in good weather und they had simply forgotten to switch off the advisory??? as I did phone up to enquire as I found it rather frustrating at the time.. (It was 'ormones as I was a bit on the larger side at the time ;; )

I shall now have to ask the tamed family (recently qualified) magistrates if they are aware of any such incident in their patches.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Following on from my previous post:
What I said is correct; however, I've just spotted potential for confusion.

Here's a typical VAS - Vehicle Activated Sign:



Even though this one also has flashing yellow lights, it is still mandatory (enforceable, not advisory) because of the red ring around the numbers.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Dont think they had the red rings round them .

That news about thwe specs is good as I did 40 or less for the majority of their duration so would have almost certainly averaged out around 40-45. Was only a short 15-20 second period of 56.

If I had accidently missed red rings around those advisory signs on the m25 wouldnt the other hundreds of drivers have been going slower too? Also woulsdnt I have to be pulled over by a police there and then, they dont ha\VWE CAMERAS for them signs do they? paranoia cereeping in again Although these ones werent activated by me they seemed like they were constant.

never seen a VAS on a motorway mind !

I have (streetview link).

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Motorway advisory limits don't have red rings, they are temporary too (making enforcement more difficult).
A temporary Motorway amber flashing advisory speed is unenforceable (side of the road) but as pointed out if a policeman stops you within that area under such 'conditions' (perhaps fog) then they will be less than impressed. As also mentioned, when conditions have changed and perhaps the fog has lifted and therefor it is no longer necessary to observe the temp advisory limit.
As they are activated by radar they need a Police presence to become activated (I guess now HSBO vehicles may activate them now too I would suspect), Police vehicles are likely to be on the road, but they can usually 'reach' them (fire the radar) from nearby roads than having to travel onto the Motorway itself. Something like fog can come and go very quickly, and even become neigh 'instantly thick' when travelling at moderate speeds, hence why they are 'temporary' advisory limits and why extreme caution and great awareness is necessary.
But if you can see the fog has lifted and the road clear then a speed within the limit is acceptable. And as a quick reminder, do not forget to turn off your fog lights as soon as you are free of fog, do not leave them on for long unnecessary stretches. Fog lights are very bright in normal conditions and can be distracting and blinding to following cars (even in daylight too).
Advisory motorway signs do not 'obtain' red rings and are never used for enforceable limits.

There are overhead gantry temporary enforceable limits which always have a red circle and above you as you drive underneath. They can be enforced by camera's in the above gantry (although they seem rare nowadays) (look in your mirror or take a quick glance, but be very aware of your steering as when you turn your head while driving can make you steer - so be careful) and can be enforced by Police.
ALL speed limits are only enforceable at and after 10% plus 2mph. So a 50mph limit can only be enforced at and above 57mph.

Try to never use other drivers as a measure of correctness, perhaps as an indicator but not more, always ensure you are happy 100% with your decision for you. That makes you responsible and ensure you are making decisions for yourself not merely being an unthinking 'sheep'.

The image above (as far as I can tell) is of the SPECS 1 (never seen a SPECS2 - anyone?) but is not of SPECS 3 - see here. Now Specs 3 appears in these (url linked) photos to only have one IR unit, but they do say they can be fitted to alternative fixtures and there is a piccy of a post with one fitted, now I assume that will also have just one IR unit.
Specs3 will and can average ANY part of the journey, from beginning to end, from camera to camera (they claim) and any lane to any lane. Hence they cause mass bunching, tailgating and bored zombie drivers becoming increasingly distracted as they try to pay attention driving well within their capabilities and conditions. See thread : Here

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Have specs 3 been installed on the m25 yet?

SPECS3 is not installed anywhere; Yet.
Get used to them, they will soon be appearing everywhere....with rural "A" roads the probable first recipients.
Their primary use is said to be to "detect people speeding". Their probable intended use is as ANPR units.

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