Safe Speed Forums

With AWD and LSDs it can be quite interesting to break the shell occasionally, given the right circumstances holding a mild power slide/drift at 5-10mph is great fun.

Sticking with your analogy the above may be like cracking the shell without spilling the contents, excellent practise for very fine throttle control. In the same vein you can turn the steering until the car starts to understeer and then unwind to find grip again, this can really help develop steering feel. Rambling on a bit and no doubt egg sucking to many on here, however as bad as the ice and snow can be there are some benefits, the very low grip means car control can be practised at very low speeds meaning much less space is needed.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

We had a couple of inches last night (the most we've had so far) and in all fairness to the local authorities they're doing a great job with the roads with only a few estate roads still ungritted. However i wish that some of the 18MPH crawlers would realise that the roads that they are doing these speeds on (usually 40MPH link roads) are actually no more than slightly damp and just because the verges might have an inch of snow on them the roads have actually been cleared....

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Oh, G, I think that you're so wrong.
To repeat, IMHO there is no safe driving-speed where ice is concerned. Why? Even if the journey had been slightly damp or dry or 'ice-free' it changes without warning when the road temperature lowers ! How do you know it changes? You start to skid, or not, as the case may be. 18 mph.......I'll take that instead of 40 mph if i started to skid.

No i'm talking middle of the day with outside temps of 3 degrees on well salted and used roads, every roads different but if people can't tell the difference between a damp road and a potentially icy road ( the fact that 95% of the other traffic is travelling faster is a bit of a give away) then they really should stay at home, more for their own safety than anyone elses because if the road was to be icy 18MPH would probably be excessive as you point out. People should be able to distinguish between a road that can be driven at 30-40MPH and one that should be taken with caution especially in broad daylight. If they can't do that then they are going to be potentially lethal after dark.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

I'm tending to agree with S&B here.
I was out for a walk this afternoon. The roads near me were wet and slushy, but generally good for traction (I chose to walk on the roads instead of the pavement).
This evening the roads became slippery, I didn't realise that until I tried to walk on them - I couldn't see any visible difference in appearance; I remained on the pavements.

Some parts of a road may be wet with others frozen, depending on exposure.
People cannot differentiate black ice from a wet surface by appearance alone.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Yes , Steve but that is where the point arises, after dark, temperatures do drop and the key to safe driving is to understand this and drive accordingly. Roads which are safe at midday in bright sunlight at 30MPH will become potentially lethal at even 18mph after dark if not gritted. What people need to do is experience different conditions and observe what speeds the majority of other drivers are doing . If you are the only one doing 40MPh then you are obviously mad or know something that the majority don't. If you are doing 18MPH and the majority are overtaking you safely and carrying on without skidding off the road then you have to ask yourself why this is possible, do they have super tyres that you haven't even heard of?...probably not.
Safe driving is all about observing the conditions AND what the majority are doing. if you are inexperienced then OBSERVE what the other drivers are doing, just as the 85 percentile rule applies to safe speed in dry conditions, then the same applies in bad conditions.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Of course it is better safe than sorry unless absolutely sure, the problem is: how can one be "sure"? This is where judgement is crucial, not just of speed but of risk of ice.

What do you do if on a day like today there aren't enough nearby drivers to gauge what speed is normal? (that's why I was able to walk on the roads). Is doing so even a good indicator of ice? Does a driver always know when they're driving on ice - when going straight at a constant speed?
If other drivers have pulled away (various reasons such as: speedo tolerance, recently joined a road) then what is there to gauge? Must one go even faster to catch up?

While being regularly safely overtaken certainly is a big clue, it is quite rare to see overtakes on many single carriageway roads at the best of times; I think only a nutter would do so on a day like today where the risk of ice is significant – afterall, what does the overtaker use to gauge if the drivers in front are going slow?
A following tailback gives no proof of anything either.

Don't forget, temperatures can drop at any time, and on specific parts of the road; bright conditions doesn’t automatically eliminate the risk of ice. If everyone simply followed each other, it is inevitable that there will be lemming moments.

Lateness can be expected on days like this, which are thankfully few and far between, hence I don't get wound up by folks who assume there is ice when there is risk of it.
Unlike a safe speed, few folks really know how to reliably recognise the risk of ice - that experience is usually gained the hard way, which I think is the point of this thread.

What is the difference between a damp road and a potentially icy road?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

temperature!

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Are you then suggesting, Steve, that everyone drives at a max of 20MPH between now and the end of March because every day between now and then we have the potential to come across an icy road that we may not recognise as such? That would certainly bring the country to a grinding halt (let's hope the government aren't reading this otherwise the NSL might be dropped for four months of the year to 20mph.... )

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Not at all (that's a strawman).
When it has been snowing, there is the potential for ice.
When the roads are wet and the temperature is near freezing, there is the potential for ice.


Temperature of what: the air or the road surface?
Who knows what the temperature is for each part of a road throughout their journey?
What is the tolerance of how it is measured?
Is there anything that can affect the freezing/melting point - like salt on the road?

It's not really all that straightforward, is it?

What do you do when there is risk of ice, be it patchy or developing, and there's few drivers out on the road to gauge traction?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Well personally, I use my judgement developed over thirty odd years of driving and this judgement means that I will travel on some roads at some times of the day at 50-60MPH and other roads at the same time of day at 10-15MPH or even less BUT you cannot say that 18MPH is the max safe speed to travel on a day like today on EVERY road.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

The majority of roads that I have travelled on today have been at speeds between 25 and 60MPH in the main and one road which was obviously icy/packed snow at probably 5MPH....although that same road was icyer and slippier at the same time yesterday. I have not had any mishaps but at the same time I have observed some (not many, probably three or four) travelling on the roads that I felt safe at 40ishMPH, at 15-20MPh and holding people up noticeably....now would those same people drive the 5MPH road at the same speed (15-20MPH) and hit the kerb/other cars? ( a customer of mine living up that road says she has seen many people do this) or would they too slow to 5MPH and negoiate it safely?

The point I am making is that people assume that because there is snow,ice around that they HAVE TO travel at ridiculously low speeds everywhere when it isn't neccessary BUT do they also vary their speeds downwards when the conditions neccessitate a lower speed? i often see people driving at 40 MPH on open clear rural NSLs in summer and these same people continue through a 30MPH village at the same 40MPH. Are these people really in control just because they travel everywhere at 40MPH in the summer and 20MPH in the winter?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Why do these people who drive so slowly on well treated surface do it in tight little convoys with only one or two lengths separation?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

What decision processes do you use to determine that travelling speed given there is risk of ice, be it patchy or developing, throughout your entire journey, and there aren't enough drivers out on the road to gauge reasonable speed/traction?


I don't know that every road had reasonable potential for ice throughout the day today.
Also, not all roads are "40MPH link roads". Perhaps motorways can reasonably handle more than 18mph given the risk of ice, if there aren't any other vehicles nearby/ahead (no bends and very little risk of an unforeseen quick stop) - 'make sure you can stop in the distance you can expect to be clear'.
I will say where there is reasonable potential for greatly increased stopping distance (however that may be), or loss of control, then lower speeds are expected.


What is wrong with slowing when one assumes there is "snow,ice around"? When is it OK to assume one can progress at normal speeds in such conditions?
Of course there's no need to go "at ridiculously low speeds", and I have no doubt there will be a few who will drive at ridiculously low speeds (just as there are those who drive at ridiculously high speeds), but right now do these people have good reason to suspect they are going ridiculously slow, especially when there isn't enough information to determine if there is suitable traction available?

I suspect DCB has asked a deviously smart question

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

When i see melting snow dropping off the trees and my window washers start working when the were previously frozen. When the temp guage says it is 3 degrees outside, when you can hear the squish of slush under your whheels or see spray coming up from the wheels of the car in front,this is usually a good sign that it is no longer at freezing point outside but like evrything in life it's down to experience and little things that you probably don't conciously notice but your brain registers.

Obviously you wouldn't plan a 60mile journey on signs that you noticed half an hour ago or even five minutes ago but you are constantly scanning the road and surroundings for tell tale signs of freezing temperatures or icy patches under trees etc where the sun isn't catching. This is why you can't set an exact speed for safe driving in winter or summer...it's going to vary second by second. This is why we need to be alert and concentrtate on the road and surroundings and not your speedo.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

funy enough our local M54 had a nasty yesterday morning (snowing at the time) and the dual A5 it leads onto had a nasty (ice) accident a few days before, so even major roads and motorways cannot be assumed to be safer than rural back roads.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

There is nothing wrong with "slowing" when there appears to be snow/ice around and in fact in most cases you would be a fool not to but you do have to look around and if the majority of drivers are doing 40MPH safely, you have to ask yourself, why am I doing 20MPH? Obviously if you are stuck in the middle of nowhere, you cannot judge your speed accordingly to the majority and must drive at a speed that you feel safe at but then you aren't likely to be inconveniencing a whole line of others.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

There is nothing wrong with "slowing" when there appears to be snow/ice around and in fact in most cases you would be a fool not to but you do have to look around and if the majority of drivers are doing 40MPH safely, you have to ask yourself, why am I doing 20MPH? Obviously if you are stuck in the middle of nowhere, you cannot judge your speed accordingly to the majority and must drive at a speed that you feel safe at but then you aren't likely to be inconveniencing a whole line of others.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

And if they're still on the trees? Also, that applies to air temp, not road surface temp (air having less thermal mass, and air can be leading the warming of the road).


Could that have anything to do with a warm engine or hot exhaust nearby? (Not everyone has a rear-engine car.)


That happens when slush is on ice (I had exactly that in my local area last month).


That can also happen with melting ice (not just melted ice).

When any of these don't occur, do you assume a risk of ice?


I agree with that.
No one mentioned anything about speedo watching. Indeed I suspect those as the limit would be watching their speedo more than those "rediculously" below it.
Yes all road users need to concentrate and be alert, but we also need to assess risks and potential limitations.


Surely you must agree that cherry picking of local instances of events doesn't prove a trend. I'm sure there were a lot of accidents all around given the conditions.


If on a single carriageway road (and not being repeatedly overtaken), how can one know they're going slower than everyone else? (unless people keep crashing into the back of them). This is an unacknowledged issue I raised in a previous post.

I should say: I'm not in favour of everyone driving at really low speeds; I just feel your response towards those that do it in these kinds of conditions is a bit unfair.

I don't suppose you could keep all your related responses within one single post?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

So Steve, what conditions would you consider driving at over 18MPH in, at this time of year and considering the weather as it's been the last few weeks? I obviously can't convince you that there are signs of conditions that are worthy of speeds in excess of 18MPh so maybe you can convince me.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.