Safe Speed Forums

Split Topic from Here Admin.



You have my sympathy there, but we're talking about different things.
Allergies are not, as a rule, caused by allergens. Peanuts, for example, don't cause deadly nut allergies, any more than a freshly-mowed lawn causes the underlying condition which makes many people break out in hives.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

What [precisely] have allergies to do with anything ?
Copd is a disease of the lungs (usually caused by smoking, but in a large minority of cases NOT) (And according to health experts (sic) at LEAST 15% of copd cases are caused by inhalation of dust and fumes at workplaces) whereby the lungs are damaged and breathing becomes difficult. The SYMPTOMS of the disease are controllable for the most part, the disease is progressive and incurable and many people die directly from that disease (also known as chronic bronchitis or emphysema )
Between 1966 and 1995, the death rates for coronary heart disease and stroke declined by 45% and 58%, respectively, whereas the death rate for copd increased by 71%.

And asthma is not caused by allergies in many cases, in my case it is caused by any inhaled dust/fumes.
So, while it is CONVENIENT to say that the case for passive smoking causing cancer is not proved and use that as an attack on [for instance] the workplace smoking law, passive smoking does cause respiratory problems in others....personally, I suggest you look at the effect that inhalation of CO has upon decision making....and also on the O2 SATS of the smoker.
Strangely, I stopped to give a lift to a guy hitchhiking last year......when he started to light-up a fag I told him I did not allow smoking in the van....he asked me to stop and got out...and yet practically all smokers will die from illnesses caused or exacerbated by smoking.
In my case it will almost immediately cause me large problems.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Please don't confuse smoking with passive smoking.
The link between smoking and cancer and other diseases is irrefutable, but the same cannot be said for passive smoking.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

How do the toxins in the smoke know whether they have been inhaled actively or passively in order to decide whether they are carcinogenic or not?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

First rule of toxicology - the poison's in the dose.
The level of toxins inhaled by a smoker is many orders of magnitude higher than that inhaled by a 'passive' smoker.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Second rule of toxicology - there is no safe dose of a carcinogen

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Really? Then how come any of us are still alive?
You've probably breathed in several molecules of carcinogens from diesel fumes in the time you've spent reading this post.
And you're probably exposed to the carcinogenic effect of your wifi as we speak.
And every time you venture out in the sun, you're exposed to UV rays.
And if the building you work in is built from granite then you've probably breathed in a fair amount of radon gas.
I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

I'm sorry.
I was just going by the effect that passive smoke has upon me.
I didn't realise that your level of knowledge was several orders of magnitude higher than the specialists in respiratory diseases at Papworth hospital. The same specialists that recommended I avoid being exposed to tobacco smoke and other fumes (and to avoid public transport because of the high risk of contracting disease)
I'll believe those who know what they're talking about I think, those with the experience and expertise.
Not you.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

I do have sympathy for your condition, but I can't help thinking that you're misconstruing what I'm saying.
I know at least three people who may die if they ingest the slightest trace of peanuts - but they're not calling for peanuts to be banned.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Wonder when they will ban hospital operations.
The number of death certificates in England and Wales mentioning Clostridium difficile (C. difficile) infection increased each year from 1999 to 2007. However, in 2008 mentions of the infection fell by 29 per cent from 8,324 to 5,931. Among death certificates with a mention of C. difficile, the percentage for which it was the underlying cause of death has been similar (around 55 per cent) in each year, but decreased slightly in 2007 to 49 per cent. This percentage decreased further in 2008 to 42 per cent.

Age-standardised death rates for both males and females increased over the period 1999 to 2007. Then, in 2008 the rate for deaths involving C. difficile in males decreased from 85 per million population in 2007 to 62 per million in 2008, a decrease of 27 per cent. In females the rate for deaths involving C. difficile decreased from 81 to 56 per million population over the same period, a decrease of 30 per cent.

Most of the deaths involving C. difficile were at older ages. Mortality rates in 2008 for deaths involving C. difficile in the 85 and over age group were 2,331 and 2,303 deaths per million population for males and females respectively. In the under 45 age group there was 1 death per million population for both males and females.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1735

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nigel_bytes

Because the time period for the effect can be over a century and most people succumb to accident, disease or the ageing process first. If medicine could eliminate all those ills people would not live for ever; they would die of cancer. The number of cases of cancer has risen as life expectancy has increased.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

That is the most ludicrous analogy that I have heard since the last ludicrous analogy, Jomo isn't asking for cigarettes to be banned . I am sure that the those three people would call for action if people started spraying peanut oil about indiscriminately so that every thing they ate was contaminated with it. That is the equivalent of what smokers are doing to jomo

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

To be factual: Each of us is dying.
That is the one thing that is predictable with 100% certainty.
And to be physically factual: Each of us "has" cancer. That's right, everyone on the planet has cancer.
To be even more precise, several thousand events take place within the body of each of us that has the potential to develop further and to become malignant tumours.
Systems within us protect against those further developments to stop them progressing.
At some time, with some people, those systems either stop working [properly] or get overwhelmed and the response is inadequate.
With smoking it is the damage within the lungs that overwhelms the protective systems (lungs are one of the organs that have no repair ability), that and the massive amount of carcinogens that are input to the organ.
You can smoke if you like, nobody is stopping you. The government (and not just labour....no party has said they will revoke the legislation banning workplace smoking) has decided to be more proactive.....and to be fair, as I remember many people trying to get a cigarette out and light it as they drive along, I can see the reasoning behind banning smoking whilst driving. That and the reduced decision making ability caused by reduced blood oxygen levels and the "high" of a known narcotic drug.
Whether it is a good idea, or enforceable, is another thing.
One good thing about having to stand outside smoking [at work] [or at other peoples workplaces (pubs)] is that many smokers are giving up smoking. Or trying to.

And for mobile-use-whilst-driving......at the end of this REPORT is a list of events that were attributed to mobile use while driving. At the very end is a [long] list of research papers on using a mobile while driving.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

The risk of contracting cancer increases much more than exponentially in old age, and at about age 80 the risk is about 1000X what it is at age 20. If it was down to exposure to carcinogens then one would expect much more of a steady increase with age.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

I didn't say he was. I was just trying to put some perspective to what was really the original topic of this thread.
If I'm in the company of people who don't like smoking around them then I refrain from doing so, I do not smoke in the car if I have non-smoking passengers.
What I'm against is having a law forcing me to do so. And especially when they start making all sorts of unsubstantiated claims, eg it's dangerous to smoke while driving.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Sorry, how on earth did the claim that we'd all die of cancer if it wasn't for other diseases slip through? Yes the risk of cancer increases with age, because the number of mutations within replicating tissues starts in the womb and continues with age, and the mechanisms the body has for dealing with undemanded and unchecked cell replication degrade, but the concept that we will all eventually balloon into balls of malignancy given enough time is utter stuff and nonsense! The ability of the body to regenerate degrades with age, and eventually the point is reached where the organs cannot be repaired at a rate greater than wear and tear damages them, and eventually one or more of them cease to function adequately to maintain life. "Wrinkles" are not just on the skin, and the Elixir of Youth is not an anti-cancer drug.

Right, with that out of the way, I think it's plain to see from the sources cited that the "science is not in" on causal links between passive smoking and cancer. Let us remember that this debate started with wailing about the effects on the children of smokers who must share vehicles with them whilst they smoke. We've heard anecdotes from some people in less-than-perfect health, who suggest that smoke exascerbates their issues, and so I imagine that they avoid smokey environments in the same way that they probably avoid sawmills and other places with high counts of airbourne particulates. Let us remember that we were not talking about the parents of children with emphysema rolling the windows up and filling the car with smoke!

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

What I was trying (obviously badly) was to get across that while the science may not be in with respect to passive smoking and cancer, it is in with respect to reduction in lung capacity and on exacerbation of existing problems for those with respiratory problems.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

There's also a difference between toxicity and risk. If we're going to clamp down on passive smoking we should also clamp down on toast, as both contain a vanishingly small cancer risk, IIRC.

More people die from emphysema, bronchitis and heart disease caused by smoking than die from smoking-induced lung cancer.
And people with already-existing respiratory disease and heart disease are put at risk from so-called passive smoking. Or were...until smoking in workplaces was legislated against.
As for driving..who cares....if people want to smoke they'll have to ask me to drop them off and wait....as if.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Smoking.

This thread was started about smoking and has gone off on a slight tangent, but hey ho.

So back to smokers.

Smokers are without doubt the most inconsiderate, lazy expletive deleted wastes of space I come across. The harder they are taxed and the harder their lives are made the better as far as I am concerned.

I work with smokers. I have to either put up with them having unauthorised breaks on company time, or breathing their noxious fumes. It makes my F****ING blood boil when I am working my nuts off and some fat, useless colleague sneaks of for a fag.

My other colleague is a seriously heavy smoker. A chain smoker of 60 high tar fags a day. That's fine, but get in the cab of anything he has been driving and it stinks. I had to drive his combine 2 summers ago and after a few hours I has sore eyes and a sore throat. It would not be so bad if he just smoked in his own cab. But no he's a smoker and only thinks of himself and his drug habit, so we all have to suffer because of his weakness.

I was talking to a friend of mine a while ago. He said he asked one of the people that worked where he did where he had been on holiday, because he was nicely tanned. He'd been nowhere, but spent a fair portion of the day stood outside having a fag in the sunshine.

This evening I went for a run and saw smokers just chucking their fag ends on the floor. Why can't these lazy b*st*rds take their littler home with them, instead of just chucking it on the floor?