Safe Speed Forums

Hello

I hope you can help me!

I was stopped by a police officer using a prolaser (I had never heard of this before) for doing 55mph on A4 Juntion with Springwell Road in August 2009. I was completely shocked when asked to pull over as I was actually approaching red lights and slowing down when he pulled out into the road on foot pointing this device at me (which looked like a gun!)

There was a car on my left ahead of me which also pulled over - as it was not clear who the officer was signalling. This car was then told to go & I was refrained.

I know I was not doing 55mph on this road - Can someone please advise how I should approach this! My court hearing is on 15th March 2010.

Most most grateful!

Hiya.

Firstly, make sure you actually weren't speeding. Check that your car speedo doesn't underread by comparing it with a GPS device (one that can indicate speed). Car speedos shouldn't underread, but there is a chance it did if you are sure you weren't speeding. Note: an underreading speedo won’t help disprove the validity of a speeding offence in court (edited for correction).

If after that you're still absolutely sure you weren't speeding, then you should fight your case. You must ask for all the evidence relating to your case: evidence photos, video (if used), copy of valid calibration certificate for the device used. You might have to fight hard for this. If you’re lucky enough to get the video, there are expert folk here and at PePiPoo who can evaluate your evidence for you.
If you're lucky you might find your case gets mysteriously dropped.

Some crucial questions:
- What were you shown when you were pulled? Was there any photos or video recorder/monitor in use?
- Were you actually pulled over by real police? Did you get a verbal NIP?
- What was the speed limit of the road in question?
- Did you opt for a court appearance (to dispute the case), or were you summonsed?
- What did you say when pulled?
- Have you received anything through the post? If so, what?

Try asking at http://www.PePiPoo.com as well. Check out their FAQ page first: http://www.pepipoo.com/FAQ.htm

Please do Keep us updated, and good luck.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Perhaps an even more pertinent question is this:

What speed do you think you were doing before you slowed for the lights?

These laser speed guns work over quite a long range. At a real 55mph you could have been pinged more than 30 seconds before you reached the plod...

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Hi

Thanks for replying

I have noticed my tom tom speed is always different from the car speedo so I'll check to see if it's over/under reading.

I was shown 55mph on the pro laser, I believe I was doing no more than 40 as I'm very aware of that road. The officer held the prolaser like a gun at arms length. I do still wonder why the car that was in front of me travelling faster in the near left lane was asked to drive on. It was not clear that the pro laser was pointed at my car - which is why myself and the car pulled over. There was no acknowledgement by the officer that there was a car on my left was almost parallel with me!

A 'Fixed Penalty Notice (Endorseable Offence)' ticket for a £60 fine and was asked to go to the police station for 3 points. (by this time my passenger had willingly paid the ticket fine £60 without telling me as they thought I had enough to worry about)

At the police station the officers pointed out the licence number was wrong on the ticket! i.e. a zero instead of a O, and also the make of the car was stated as Rover instead of Mini/BMW. They advised the ticket could be invalid. I wrote a letter to the correspondance section to query this and also ask for supporting evidence that my car was doing 55mph.

I received a reply in September saying this does not make the ticket invalid and the only options are to pay the fixed penalty notice or request a court hearing, however as the fine was paid for the court hearing was not an option. So I called the Traffic Criminal Justice person who sent me a letter & she arranged for a refund so court proceedings could start.

I've now been sent a summons asking me to send my plea. Also included is a calibration certificate which I cant make any sense of, witness statement to confirm the car was a Mini Cooper and not Austin Mini, and an evidence details page by the officer.

What should I do!

You should get over to Pepipoo and repeat your posts. They are more equipped to advise you than us.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

lav81
What a tangled web very stressful but it sounds like you have things well in hand.
from you description it seems like they observed you from further back and hence why they dismissed the 'car in front of you'.

I would definitely obtain legal advice.
I am not a lawyer and cannot advise you - below is of my opinion only.

I would expect that where there are errors on any NIP that this will place you in good standing in Law for the ticket to be squashed.
It is good to present your case with one main error than several (even if there are more than one) - I would expect.
Can you place the certificate up online or email it to me so that we can post it up ? what is the date and is the signature look at all like the name printed ? The signature has to be signed by the same printed name and 'in person' at the date specified.
The details of the calibration need to show whether there is any correction made to the equipment and when and what, (i.e. before or after your NIP) - in principal as any errors near to your incident as it can show that it is possibly in error.
Also the Police procedure need to be complete and accurate so you can ask for that as well, any errors in procedure should see an end to the ticket (chk with legal representative).
Also any signage errors can also help as to are any errors with the road speed limit if the Council has not authorised it - worth checking but I think you have enough ....
You need to take legal advice. As already recommended to you go to PePiPoo they have legal personal that can advise you appropriately.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Most of the lasers can be used up to a distance of around 900metres but as you would agree,the operator has to have a bloody good pair of eyes to see that far especially at night.

I use one of these units on a regular basis but it is the Laser Lti 20/20 either heavy weight or light weight,I would ask you to find out what distance you saw on the machine as I always show the individual the speed and distance that they were caught at.

I never do much more than 300 metres and always do two checks and the second one is the one that I proceed on,so,if you get your speed down on the second check then you have got away with it,on the other hand you could be getting faster by the second check.

I would say find out the distance that you were caught at before you bang on about errors or other vehicles in the line of sight etc,as more often than not as has been said you will have been caught much further back than lets say when you first spot the officer at the side of the road.

All our speeding cases go before the District judge and if you go to court and ask about calibration certificate or there was a car in front of him etc then they are not pleased as they know how the equipment works if it is calibrated,and if it was not used correctly then he will not miss the officer and hit the wall with the tounge lashing that he gives out.

Remember at court if the prosecution prove that the equipment was calibrated,and being used correctly as per the manufacturers guidelines and instructions and it was being used in accordance with ACPO the officer was trained .

Then you either have to show evidence to the contrary also if your vehicle was defective at the time ie speedo faulty and that you could not have known this,then you might just have a case to mitigate on.

As for NIP if stopped at the side of the road then a NIP will have been given verbally and in any case the Fixed penalty ticket over rides this ,I always write on the rear of the ticket P.O.O. (C) NIP then note any reply and get them to sign it, although not all officers do this as far as I am aware. All I would say to you is if you know that at anytime on that stretch of road you were at that sort of speed then hold your hands up,In 6 yrs of using this equipment and similar I have never known it to give mis reads or slips and I check regulary for thsi as if I had any doubt about its ability then I would not use it.

Good Luck
Stephen

You're not trying
It's quite easy once you know how - yes I've done it (granted with an older LTI, but they're all is essentially the same).
I've never tried a Prolaser.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Stephen --- I havn't seen anyone mention a photo of the 'tatgeted' car as yet ??? Is it not important that a photo is asked for ? Am I correct in saying that the user instructions state that the target should be the Licence Plate of the vehicle (because it is a verticle surface) and that if this target is not correct as per the centred cross hairs and the cross hairs are shown on the photo to be on a very curved part of the plastic bumper or bodywork that there is a possibility of error as in the case of Dr Phillip Tann to the tune of 12 MPH ????
He firmly stated that in his oppinion in so many words that it was user mishandling that can cause error ??
It is also suggested that if a defendant wants to look at the video recording or seek expert advise re all the frames that can amount to 40 frames in 0.3 of a second thaat show a speed for each frame.
Is the statement correct by an engineer that if the precise aiming is not targeted correctly and the laser shifts from a point from further to nearer from the vehicle to the car's surface that this can cause an error ????
After all ,,the instrument evaluates the speed from the measurements taken which reflect back to the machine from the vehicle. Although the Authorities in Newcastle area were adamant in Dr Tanns 's case that there instuments are very accurate this never the less did not 'add up' re the accusation of 41 MPH his case.

Not really, if the return detected a change in range rate that indicated a curve then the device wouldn't read a speed. The size of the illuminating beam prevents curves of bumpers being detected.
Dr. Tann's case was discontinued when the operating officer could not attend court; there was no hearing that showed there was a discrepancy in speed and since his case I have not heard of anyone attempting to use his system to defend a case.

Dr. Tann knows nothing of the operation of the laser speedmeter especially the ProLaser III. In his case it was an LTI20.20 and he has shown he knows little or nothing about that also.

That's a rapid frame rate, 133/sec. 15 0r 16 would be normal but there is no requirement to use a video.

If you create the conditions and geometry to do so it can be done but in normal operation it isn't possible no.

The only thing that doesn't "add up" is that Dr. Tann continues to promote that he showed his vehicle was travelling at a different speed to the vehicle speed shown by the laser speedmeter yet there was never a hearing to show if it did or did not and he knows it. Have a look at his web site that uses a self-generated certificate of your vehicle speed where you can choose your own time scale for the speed calculation. All you have to do to get the speed down is open up the time period and down it goes. The certificates are not really worthwhile until police operators start using the same time source as Dr. Tann's system, they are no more use, perhaps less use, than a tachograph, the speed on your tachograph at say 1231 is not or is unlikely to be the same as the speed on the speedmeter at 1231 because they are not synchronised together in time nor do they take the speed of the vehicle over the same time period; the system is of little or no evidential value whatsoever. Being self generated doesn't help either.

Are you saying it isn't possible to slip down the bonnet of an oncoming car?
What if conditions aren't normal?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

How would slip down a bonnet work?
How would you isolate a bonnet from the front of the car?

Are you aware of the Tu quoque fallacy? This is usually a diversionary tactic of those who cannot bring themselves to answer the questions posed of them (for whatever reason), so they instead misdirect by asking other questions in an attempt to disguise their own failing.

However, I have no need to evade:

Of oncoming car: start with the beam on the rear of the bonnet and sweep downwards (towards say the VRM) so the beam ends up at the front of the bonnet. I've successfully achieved a significant speed reading off the bonnet of my own (stationary) car.
I do not see the relevance of your second question; no isolation is necessary.

My original and very pertinent questions remain unacknowledged:

- Are you saying it isn't possible to 'slip' down the bonnet of an oncoming car - yes or no?
- What if conditions aren't normal?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

In normal use by the police the target vehicle is, unless I have got it wrong, moving.
Now have a go with it moving and see how you get on.
If you do not understand why isolation is required you have only a very basic understanding of how laser speedmeters work.


I say that it is not possible when the device is used to target the vehicle as instructed and not possible unless deliberately attempted and even then it would only be possible at close range. The chances of it happening inadvertently are nil or as close to nil as not being worth consideration.

Oooh, are you going to do a 'Frank Garrett' (previous MD of TeleTraffic - provider of the LTI2020) and say (in terms of slip error) there is a difference between a moving vehicle and a stationary one?
LIght Detection And Ranging doesn’t really work with stationary surfaces does it
Can you believe the utter incompetence of expert witnesses these days? Then again, he had a considerable conflict of interest; I doubt he is the only person within that arena to be so conflicted.

- What is the significance of that difference? (between a stationary and moving surface)
- Would my car moving have prevented the slip reading being achieved?

Feel free to go as technical as you like; I think you'll find I'm quite capable of understanding (as are other forum regulars).

Let's assume you're correct: that readings from stationary surfaces aren't really valid. Can you tell us what the expert witness Steve Callaghan uses to check the function of the LTI?
"... relied upon the speed of 0mph." - kinda muddies your waters doesn’t it!


Alternatively:
I have perfectly adequate understanding and you’re simply trying to obfuscate your way out of your doomed argument.

That same expert witness once tried that with me too, and he is currently used within technical court cases - isn't that scary!

Let’s cut to the chase:
- Why don’t you just tell us why this 'isolation' is necessary?
- How was I able to get an undetected slipped speed reading from the bonnet even though it wasn’t 'isolated'?


What if accidentally done?
Do operators always perfectly aim at the same spot on the vehicle throughout the repeated attempts? (E03 is common isn’t it)


I agree, when referring to bonnets (depending on how you define close range). So you agree it is possible in normal operation, at least in some circumstances?
That limitation needn’t apply when considering other surfaces, such as roads just in front of the targeted vehicle, does it?
- What if conditions aren't normal?


Interesting claim. Can you substantiate your statement?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Of course here is a difference between moving and stationary objects... doppler effect!

Plus you don't want to be stood in front of a moving object... you might get rammed!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

That's probably what Frank Garrett was thinking, that his laser guns operate using the doppler effect
At least it's a bit more difficult to get slip with doppler

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

what a nice different of opinions



ok lets kick this one into touch, no photo this was a roadside pull by a police officer (correct me if i am wrong, but isn't this what this site wants, stop by police using their discretion wheres IG when you need him). Dr Tann ahh yes as greehshed said the police witness was unavailable to turn up, case dropped the theory never got heard, or did it !!!! maybe it raised its head when Dr. Tanns secetary got caught, , i wonder why the result never made the headlines, because the theory was disproved end of complete






i once obtained a reading of 2mph off a stationary vehicle, at a distance less than 20metres at a very silly angle, a colleague and i have also conducted many field trials using a speedscope, a 100 and a 1000 and a few others trying to get rogue readings / discrepancies, the only conclusion i have is the 100 gives out more error readings, but we all know why that is,

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now retired

Why is it whenever I read your posts I get a distinct smell. As with all camera operators.

ok i will get some breath fresheners



how many have you met, or are you the one who beeps the horn after they pass the van

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now retired