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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:41 
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The Newspaper - Here
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4/12/2010 - Arizona: Police Report Shows Speed Camera Caused Accident
Anti-photo radar group uses police document to demonstrate how a speed camera caused an accident in Gilbert, Arizona.

Although independent studies have shown a link between the use of photo enforcement equipment and a statistically significant increase in the number of collisions, opponents of photo radar have produced few concrete examples of these incidents. In Arizona, the group CameraFraud.com has begun using freedom of information laws to get its hands on examples of accidents that would not have happened but for the presence of a speed camera van (view studies).

At around March 17th at about 4 p.m. a gray 2005 Ford SUV was driving on State Route 202 passing through the city of Gilbert. Traffic was light on the six-lane, 65 MPH freeway on a clear and bright day. When the 32-year-old Ford driver saw a speed camera van up ahead, he slammed on his brakes and slowed to just 35 MPH -- a common reaction near cameras as drivers seek to avoid receiving an expensive citation in the mail.

At the same time, a 22-year-old in a red 2008 Pontiac G6 was following behind without speeding, according to police estimates. The Pontiac driver briefly looked away from the car in front of her so that she could change lanes to the right. She did not expect the car ahead to suddenly scrub drop its speed by 30 MPH. As a result, the two cars collided just a few yards from a Redflex speed camera van.

Such incidents are quite common. A 2007 study by Arizona State University concluded that there was a 54-percent increase in rear-end collisions and a 9-percent increase in injuries from rear-end collision on the Loop 101 freeway during the state's first experiment with automated freeway ticketing. The study's author, paid by the city of Scottsdale, dismissed the significance of this finding by saying, "Increases in rear-end crashes are traded for reductions in other crash types."

According to a comprehensive British Medical Journal study published in 2006, that trade-off may not actually be worth making. The report found that police claims of a safety benefit from the use of speed cameras turned out to be false. To the contrary, an examination of actual hospital records showed an increase in the number of patients admitted from road accidents following the widespread introduction of automated ticketing machines in England (view study).

A copy of the accident report obtained by CameraFraud is available in a 400k PDF file at the link below.
Source: PDF File Crash Report 2010-013387(Arizona Department of Public Safety, 3/24/2010)


Says it all !

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:57 
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Indeed!

Don't know if this has been posted here yet but it says it all as well.

When will they wake up! :hoppingmad:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 20:11 
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It seems to me that the most likely cause of the collision was that she was too close to the car in front.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 20:33 
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fisherman wrote:
It seems to me that the most likely cause of the collision was that she was too close to the car in front.

Indeed, and had the speed camera not been present, the accident would not have occured, so you decide. Had she not driven too close, the accident would not have happened, but also if the camera was not present the accident would not have happened. So it seems to me that the camera made tailgating 100's of times more dangerous.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 20:39 
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Maybe a case of two wrongs don't make a right? :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 20:47 
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Odin wrote:
the camera made tailgating 100's of times more dangerous.



Surely tailgating is always dangerous, whether something untoward happens or not?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 20:52 
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When following another vehicle there are only four things it is likely to do. Speed up. Move to the left. Move to the right. Slow down. Only the last has any real danger for following vehicles and can be avoided completely by following basic common sense driving and leaving a suitable gap.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 20:53 
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weepej wrote:
Surely tailgating is always dangerous, whether something untoward happens or not?

It certainly does pose a risk.

That wasn't necessarily the case here.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 00:02 
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I agree with Odin. Sure, tailgating is not a good thing to do, no argument. But this is just trying to muddy the waters between "cause" and "blame". The following driver was to "blame" for the accident, but the "cause" was the camera. In this case, no camera, no accident!

Maybe if I put a 50,000 volt electric fence round my property to keep out burglars - with plenty of good signs so that they knew exactly what to expect, and a would-be burglar got fried, for not keeping away from it, I would be as "blameless" as the camera van?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 07:53 
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Mole wrote:
I agree with Odin. Sure, tailgating is not a good thing to do, no argument. But this is just trying to muddy the waters between "cause" and "blame". The following driver was to "blame" for the accident, but the "cause" was the camera. In this case, no camera, no accident!


You could, with that justification, blame the manufacturer of the vehicle. After all - no car, no accident!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 09:32 
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weepej wrote:
Odin wrote:
the camera made tailgating 100's of times more dangerous.

Surely tailgating is always dangerous, whether something untoward happens or not?
:yesyes: One of my biggest hates! If I was a millionare I'd buy me a Hummer and drop the anchors when someone's stuck up my rear. :x That'd learn them.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:41 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
You could, with that justification, blame the manufacturer of the vehicle. After all - no car, no accident!

Why not go further and blame the road: no road, no accident.

It is fairly obvious the presence of the camera is what instigated the event. Yes there are other factors too, but it doesn’t detract from the point that the presence of the camera was a contributory factor.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:14 
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Steve wrote:
It is fairly obvious the presence of the camera is what instigated the event. Yes there are other factors too, but it doesn’t detract from the point that the presence of the camera was a contributory factor.


If the tail-gater had been driving properly the accident would not have occurred, however many cameras were on the road.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:57 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
If the tail-gater had been driving properly the accident would not have occurred, however many cameras were on the road.

I repeat: this may not have been a case of tail-gating.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 13:41 
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Steve wrote:
I repeat: this may not have been a case of tail-gating.


I suspect that "tail gating" is about to become one of those Humpty Dumpty words with which one can always win an argument so I will stop using it.

If a driver crashes into the car in front (s)he is, ipso facto, travelling too close for the prevailing conditions - those conditions including speed, surface conditions, propensity to be distracted and so on.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 13:51 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
I suspect that "tail gating" is about to become one of those Humpty Dumpty words with which one can always win an argument so I will stop using it.

I think that's a fair response. The definition of tailgating is open to interpretation, I recall one person argued that a gap of less than 15 seconds (IIRC) is tailgating.

dcbwhaley wrote:
If a driver crashes into the car in front (s)he is, ipso facto, travelling too close for the prevailing conditions - those conditions including speed, surface conditions, propensity to be distracted and so on.

So that truck driver who crashed and killed the couple, must have been "travelling too close", even though he was something like 40 seconds behind?

Returning to our case: what if the person who hard-anchored is or had just changed lanes? Surely your "ipso facto" would actually be void?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 14:00 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Mole wrote:
I agree with Odin. Sure, tailgating is not a good thing to do, no argument. But this is just trying to muddy the waters between "cause" and "blame". The following driver was to "blame" for the accident, but the "cause" was the camera. In this case, no camera, no accident!


You could, with that justification, blame the manufacturer of the vehicle. After all - no car, no accident!


...or, indeed, the following driver's parents for having him in the first place? :roll:

Stupid of me really, I should have known that no ill can ever come of a camera installation!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 16:22 
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Steve wrote:
[
So that truck driver who crashed and killed the couple, must have been "travelling too close", even though he was something like 40 seconds behind?


I am not familiar with the case in question. But if the truck driver was doing something which took his attention from the road ahead for 40 seconds he would have been wise to leave himself at least that stopping time.

Quote:
Returning to our case: what if the person who hard-anchored is or had just changed lanes? Surely your "ipso facto" would actually be void?

I am not familiar with the term 'hard-anchored'. If a slow moving vehicle changed lanes unpredictably there might be some excuse but good observation would usually allow you to anticipate that.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 16:44 
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Surely so long as you’re not speeding it’s okay to be an inch from the vehicle in front? I’ve never heard of 'too close kills' or seen a commercial on TV about it, although maybe it’s because they can’t easily measure and make money from it yet.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 18:30 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
[
So that truck driver who crashed and killed the couple, must have been "travelling too close", even though he was something like 40 seconds behind?


I am not familiar with the case in question.

article wrote:
He said Mr da Silva had not seen the queuing traffic ahead because he was not paying attention.

"If he had looked he would have seen the queuing traffic for himself because the road was straight for over a mile before the queue started.

"He had plenty of time to see the queue because the trucks in front had been there for between one and two minutes before he arrived.

For over a mile before the point of impact the defendant was not paying proper attention to the road - it was gross inattention
Andrew Thomas QC

"For over a mile before the point of impact the defendant was not paying proper attention to the road. It was gross inattention," he said.


dcbwhaley wrote:
But if the truck driver was doing something which took his attention from the road ahead for 40 seconds he would have been wise to leave himself at least that stopping time.

I won't dispute that, but could that really be reasonably considered as "tail-gating"?

dcbwhaley wrote:
I am not familiar with the term 'hard-anchored'.

Let me rephrase:
Returning to our case: what if the person who braked hard was or had just changed lanes? Surely your "ipso facto" would actually be void?

dcbwhaley wrote:
If a slow moving vehicle changed lanes unpredictably there might be some excuse but good observation would usually allow you to anticipate that.

How does someone anticipate a cut-in when looking behind (checking blind spot or whatever)?

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