Safe Speed Forums

In the 1960s, J J Leeming, the chief highway engineer of Dorset County Council, wrote a book entitled "Road Accidents - Prevent or Punish?"

In this he set out the controversial view that the main cause of road accidents was poor or deceptive road design, and that attempts to blame accidents on "bad drivers" were to a large extent wrong-headed and counterproductive.

The best way to improve road safety was not to punish "bad drivers" but to improve the roads so that they were less deceptive and more forgiving.

The book is long out of print although I have a PDF copy of it.

Obviously we have a substantial minority of blatantly reckless drivers. But most road accidents still result from individuals making mistakes, without any intention or conscious irresponsibility.

Therefore I still believe that Leeming's principles hold true, and, while there may well be benefits from improving driver training, it should not be seen as a panacea for improving safety, as some on this forum sometimes argue.

In looking to improve safety, we need to separate "cause" from "fault". Somebody may have made a mistake, but it could be possible to redesign the road so that such a mistake was less likely to occur in future, or its consequences may be mitigated.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

This is really interesting.

I too believe that engineering is the key, but not just road design and road layouts, but also vehicle design and post crash medical care.

In Leeming's day, we had over 50% of crashes taking place at 'traditional' black spots. But we've treated the black spots and the proportion of crashes at traditional black spots is now around 15%. As this has happened we've tended to use wider definitions of black spots and now have 'black links' as well. But crashes these days are more random - more widely distributed across the road network.

We can still move traffic to faster safer roads, especially by road building and providing motorway routes.

But, and it's a huge but, we can't explain away the massive differences in crash rates from country to country with roads engineering. We have to look at average drivers and the 'safety culture'.

I don't believe we have ever received a significant road safety benefit from driver improvement - but I do believe we're receiving a disbenefit right now - we're making drivers worse by lying to them, giving them oversimplified messages and by making them paranoid.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I think the key message from Leeming is that you won't improve road safety by blaming "bad drivers". The recent proposals to introduce prison sentences for those found guilty of "causing death by careless driving" may serve the interest of justice, but they won't improve safety.

I tend to believe that many on this forum exaggerate the benefits that could be gained from improved driver training. I don't see that any form of improved driver training that doesn't significantly reduce participation in driving is going to improve overall casualty figures by more than about 5%. And if you reduce the number of drivers, you will have more cyclists and pedestrians, who are more vulnerable than car occupants.

Some of the gains in road safety over the past 40 years have resulted from building up a "critical mass" of car users, which is now being eroded - look at the greatly reduced figure of under-20s passing driving tests in recent years.

The key message from J J Leeming is that, when looking at accidents, we need to separate "cause" from "blame". Air accident investigators have long done this, and the result is that we have an impressive level of air safety, not from blaming "bad pilots", but from reducing the possibility of mistakes occurring, and of mistakes having fatal consequences.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I would opt for a mixture of all, good education of drivers, improved road layouts, when it is highlighted as a problem area, and punishment of poor driving standards.

This is a true story:

My mums freind past her test recentley, and visited my mum, she asked ahy her husband was driving now she had passed her test.

Her reply:

"Your road is too busy, i cannot drive on it"

Our driving test, just feels me with confidence

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Steve

The difference I feel between the countries figures and how our roads are not getting any safer is due to lack of traffic policing and lack of investment in roads from the various taxes they take from us.

We all know a police officer is better than a Gatso or a Scamera Van and I have noticed since there has been cut backs in traffic units and public hatred towards cameras (therefore the police/law) the driving standard has got worse.

Proven by the amount of Drunk Drivers and uninsured/unlicenced drivers there are.. cameras do not pick those up but a traffic copper would, that is thier bread n butter.

Also with "black spots" I generally think it is bad road design caused by underfunding. ie unprotected junctions on dual carriage ways like there is up my way (A96 etc) always tend to be the blackspots.

If you compair the funding from road tax to that of other countries you'll find deaths and funding tend to be linked.

See the below graph to see the funding ratios over the last few decades and also with EU/US!



It also explains alot about the pot holes an crap streetlighting of late! Even if they increased the spending in roads to the near 13 billion it used to be surely that would see a big difference.

Can't find the article from the BBC website as it was quite intresting.

Our driving test is also not as hard as it should be.. and driving instructors have alot to answer for.. rather that teaching driving ability (like they used to) they are now teaching just how to pass the test.. if you know what i mean.

A number of articles based on J. J. Leeming's book have recently appeared in the ABD magazine and have now been put on the Web here:

http://www.abd.org.uk/jjleeming.htm

Well worth reading, and challenges many current orthodoxies.

Published in 1969, Road Accidents: Prevent or Punish? is one of the most important books ever written about road safety, and should be compulsory reading for everyone involved in the formulation of road safety policy. Although it was written nearly thirty-five years ago, the attitudes and prejudices J.J.Leeming describes are not only still with us, they have become even more entrenched.

John Leeming was County Surveyor of Dorset and was a firm believer that road accidents could be reduced by a scientific and dispassionate analysis of their causes. He was strongly opposed to the view that accidents are caused by the wilful misdeeds of drivers, who must therefore be punished for their 'crimes'. Indeed, he pointed out that this blame culture leads to drivers being reluctant to talk openly about their actions to accident investigators for fear of prosecution, with the result that the true contributory factors may never be established. Further accidents will continue to occur, therefore, which might otherwise have been prevented — hence the title of his book. His frustration is summed up in the dedication to his work:

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

We know that better trained and more experienced crivers have fewer crashes than less trained and inexperienced drivers (do we know how many fewer?). That's clearly no accident! The question I think you would be right to ask is whether it is reasonable to expect that a substantial improvement in overall driver standards is practically achievable?



Isn't that an effect of better training?

The articles on the ABD site make interesting reading, a couple of comments if I may.
Perversely, it might seem that making dangerous roads look dangerous may persuade drivers to approach with caution. Not a solution anyone would advocate though...would they
Leeming suggests that giving motorists more space in which to drive badly(3-lane highways being his cited example) doesn't necessarily mean they will do so. I personally have mixed feelimgs about 'right turn' filter lanes on single carriageway roads, they are excellent for giving non-turning traffic the space to pass vehicles executing a turn but, in my experience, they are also extremely attractive as overtaking points. I personally have been faced with an oncoming vehicle on the ghost island 3 times, twice whilst stationary waiting to turn, once forcing me to abort the turn and carry on. Not pleasant. I'm sure the benefits outweigh the chance that some fool will try and misuse them but the hazard exists nonetheless.

Safety barriers are the answer - a simple safety barrier is not difficult to erect - they seem to erect them easily enough when doing roadworks.

I have read that in Sweden, on single-lane carriageways, they have wire in the central part where we rely on two solid white lanes. An effective way to prevent traffic crossing over to the wrong side of the carriageway.

Similarly, a simple barrier to protect the right-turning traffic, preventing them from being used to overtake and protecting from oncoming traffic.

(Ideally convert all the main single-carriageway roads to dual-carriageway, 2 lanes in each direction, and grade-separated junctions. 2/3 of all fatal accidents in Britain are on main single-carriageway roads).

I'd have to vote no to wires in the middle of the road. Any biker hitting those, for whatever reason, will end up in bits, literally.

An increasing number of dual carriageways now have wire central reservation barriers rather than armco - presumably some research has been done on the effect of various vehicle types hitting it.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

This was in the local paper....


Maybe the "experts" are getting the message

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Speed camera policy Kills

Peter E - I would certainly go along with the principle of separating cause from blame. This was a very successful way of preventing repeat railway accidents before the HSE brought in a blame culture.
In a lot of cases it is obvious that roads need to be re-engineered, like right turns across busy dual-carriageways when grade separated junctions are needed.

I agree with a Cyclist that separation and road improvement are key.

Where I live although most of the property is post war, the road planning is very patchy.

Cycle lanes off the main road could be added to join up with existing routes and reduce the School rush.

But Councils seem to lack the drive to tackle it and instead focus on humps and blocks to disuade traffic use.

Where land is tight, it would even be in the interests of some folk to sell 6ft of garden to gain a much quieter road!

This classic book has now been reprinted and is available to buy here at £9.99 plus P&P.

Comment by Lord Montagu of Beaulieu:

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Thanks Peter. Copy ordered.

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Less Kodak, more Kojak.
In times of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

This is something I have been expounding for a while. We can learn from cause, but fault is only a way to decide who pays the bills.

I will be ordering a copy too, I think it should make fascinating reading. I only wish that those who made the big decisions were similarly fascinated!

Just ordered my copy, too.

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All views expressed are personal.

Me too

Wow, it arrived this morning, i.e. within 24 hours.

Looks at first flick like a good - if academic - read.