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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 16:07 
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The votes are, so far, not too surprising!!

VOTE HERE

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 18:05 
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James Baggott wrote:
Speed cameras are not the best way of making killer roads safer, according to the Road Safety Foundation.
Speed cameras not the best way to cut deaths
Posted 30th Jun 2010 by James Baggott
Filed under: Safety, News
The pressure group has analysed the dangerous roads across the UK that have seen a dramatic reduction in the number of serious injuries and deaths – and it found speed cameras weren't the solution.

The most improved road – the A40 between Llandovery and Camarthen in Wales – slashed the number of serious accidents by a whopping 74 per cent and it didn't use any cameras to do it.
"Road improvements and resurfacing are far more cost effective at reducing road deaths than speed cameras," said a spokeswoman for the Foundation.
"Speed cameras can only be placed where there has been a consistent problem but they cost a lot more than other means of making roads safer."
The A40 improvements included traffic management, spiral road markings, resurfacing with anti-skid toppings, improved junctions and drainage, and adding village gateways.
With these improvements in place, the number of deaths and serious injuries were cut from 27 between 2003-05 to just seven between 2006-08.
These findings from the Road Safety Foundation added to recent news that the coalition government will be ending funding for speed cameras, will come as welcome news for motorists who for years have said speed cameras don't work at reducing accidents.
Dr Joanne Hill, director of the Road Safety Foundation, added: "As the road budget becomes tighter, emphasis must be on saving lives with less.
"There are practical examples of how, with attention to detail, some authorities are slashing the toll of death and serious injury on high risk stretches by as much as three-quarters.
"Simple, relatively inexpensive engineering measures, such as improvements to signing and lining, resurfacing and the layout of signals at junctions, are paying dividends and are affordable particularly when done as part of well planned routine maintenance."

Vote:
Out of the following, what's the best way to cut deaths on killer roads?
1) More speed cameras
2) Better signing and lining
3) Better signals at junctions
4) Resurfacing the roads

Their vote is hardly fair sensible or intelligent - how can anyone possible judge how a specific road can be improved ! What non-sense - are they assuming that people will check the camera box, as they opt out of things that they know nothing about ?
Some roads only have a centre line, so better signals is hardly appropriate ! Goes to show how little is understood abut this subject, and how seriously they have taken this subject sadly.
I am delighted to see articles like this have begun however, and encouraged that people are looking at alternatives (finally) as maybe we can slowly obtain less KSI on the roads and make them finally safer. :)

Road Safety Foundation here and Dangerous Roads Here
EuroRAP report here and although I see that they have only been carrying out their study over only the last nine years I found this (same webpage) encouraging :
EuroRAP wrote:
The latest research shows that a 43km stretch of single carriageway on the A40 between Carmarthen and Llandovery is Britain's most improved road. The previous level of 54 fatal and serious collisions have been cut by more than 80 per cent to ten, by introducing measures such as resurfacing and improvements to the design and layout of junctions. A further nine roads are rated among the most improved where, typically, resurfacing, changes to junction layout, better signing and white lines are bringing about more than 50 per cent reductions in fatal and serious accidents.

Quote why we 'need' any 'Euro' study when we surely can provide our own quite adequately I find questionable at least! Seems like paying for something twice as well as being dictated to from afar...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 23:19 
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James Baggott wrote:
The pressure group has analysed the dangerous roads across the UK that have seen a dramatic reduction in the number of serious injuries and deaths – and it found speed cameras weren't the solution.


Well that's their funding for next year down the tubes then! I'm sure we won't be hearing much from them in the future! :wink:

Naturally, I heartily agree. The A74 "Cumberland Gap" where the M6 ended and went into several miles of dual carriageway (complete with lay-bys and a petrol station) before widening back out into the M74 at Gretna, is a classic example. As soon as they completed widening it into 3-lanes and removing the lay-bys, there was a drop in KSis (which naturally show up in CSCP's statistics)! :wink:

I also agree with Claire though - that vote was stupid and over-simplistic, but no more so than the polls typically used by SCPs!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 01:20 
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It is of course excellent that our whole point is now being agreed with from many quarters too which is great. :D
Although it is sad that Paul is not about to see it, we/he knew he was right!:)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 02:36 
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Some councils are changing for the better it seems,
Close to where i live there have been 4 bad accidents and only a few weeks ago SPEED was the culprit and yes there were calls for you know what.
Well look here, (my bold)

Huddersfield Daily Examiner Here
Huddersfield Daily Examiner wrote:
Road safety work starts at notorious Huddersfield accident blackspot
Jul 15 2010

SAFETY work has begun at one of Huddersfield’s most dangerous accident blackspots.

Kirklees Council has started making £40,000 worth of improvements to Meltham Road, between Lockwood and Armitage Bridge, after a series of serious road smashes.

Last weekend a crash left a teenager critically injured after two taxis collided head-on near Park Valley Mills in Lockwood. The 19-year-old girl is in hospital with multiple injuries, including a broken back.

The smash was the fourth bad accident in less than three months. The accidents have all taken place between the junction with Hanson Lane, Lockwood, and Armitage Road, Armitage Bridge – a stretch of less than one mile.

Now road upgrades including improved lighting, a red high friction anti-skid surfacing, new improved road lighting studs (cats eyes) and vehicle-activated signs are being installed in a bid to cut the shocking accident rate.

Talented teenage tennis player Christian Lang lost his life in a horror smash on the road outside the Big Valley Garage in July last year.
In June last year a young woman in her 20s had to be pulled from her BMW X3 after it flipped over on the road.
http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/local-west-yorkshire-news/2010/07/15/road-safety-work-starts-at-notorious-huddersfield-accident-blackspot-86081-26856327/

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:23 
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I was a victim in the Huddersfield crash mentioned above in Christian Lang lost his life. I was a front passenger in the car the teenage driver, Christian’s friend, hit. Along with my husband I very nearly lost my life, was on crutches for over six months, and I am left with a disability.

So I read with real interest all the above and am glad that intelligent discussion is going on. Until I read all of this I thought I was 100% for speed cameras – this is the only main route into Huddersfield from outlying communities that has nothing and has undoubtedly in my view, has been used as a speed run by youngsters. The improvements put into place by Kirklees certainly ‘feel’ safer but time will tell. This is a real test case which, as someone who was personally involved, will watch with passionate interest. On another tack, the whole of philosophy of young male drivers surely needs tackling. They really believe they’re immortal. I’d ban ‘top gear’ for a start - it's outrageous in it's blatent promotion of speed.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:19 
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:welcome: speedvictim

Thank you for your comments.
I am sure that you have gone through much personal grief and trials and tribulations during your ordeal.
We try here to discuss the facts and reasons that establish true road safety and to fully understand what makes the road safe.
Hence why you will find little 'emotional arguments' here which some can find 'harsh' on the surface, but it is what counts.
By researching and understanding the 'true root causes of any accident' we can hopefully lead to prevent further accidents, than highlight a 'contributory factor/s' which can sadly 'white-wash' over the true causes.

I am not sure legally if you are free to talk about the accident, but if you are, would you like to discuss it ?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:20 
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speedvictim wrote:
On another tack, the whole of philosophy of young male drivers surely needs tackling. They really believe they’re immortal. I’d ban ‘top gear’ for a start - it's outrageous in it's blatent promotion of speed.



:welcome: hello speed victim. Young males will always and have always believed they were/are immortal. That's what being a young male is all about. Tens of thousands of years ago, one young lad looked at a horse, looked at his mates and said "I am going to sit on the back of that horse, watch and learn". He then got chucked off and broke his arm, but he was The Man 8-). It still goes on now with young men on wheels, we can provide them with safer cars, safer roads, safety education, but boys will be boys and need exciting. If society stops them doing themselves too much harm on wheels, they will just find new and inventive ways of hurting themselves.

Top Gear is an enterainment programme and they do all their high speed pratting about off the public highway. I'd ban all these stupid lifestyle programmes that tell people they can all have a millionaire lifestyle, but that's just me.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 14:28 
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:welcome:

I would agree with Adam.

I might be totally, totally, wrong here but looking at the sort of studio audience that Top Gear attracts, I would guess that the programme is watched more by middle aged men and women than youngsters but it may just be that they can't afford/be bothered to attend the studio.

The youngsters by me , in the majority, seem more interested in "blinging" their cars up, more so than tearing round in them (although there will always be those that do) most of the blinged up cars round our way don't even travel at the speed limit from what I've seen, let alone exceed it but it's the vast countryside that we have around here, that accounts for most of the crashes ,I suspect, but again i would expect it to be more a case of in appropriate speed more than exceeding a speed limit.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 14:39 
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Hello Speedvictim.

there's a very interesting disparity between the age distribution of road accident victims and those who are caught by speed cameras.

New drivers are less likely to get gatso'd than their serious accident frequency would suggest ought to be the case.

So the camera led road safety policy we've had for the last 15 years or so is clearly targetting the wrong people.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 14:42 
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speedvictim wrote:
I was a victim in the Huddersfield crash mentioned above in Christian Lang lost his life. I was a front passenger in the car the teenage driver, Christian’s friend, hit. Along with my husband I very nearly lost my life, was on crutches for over six months, and I am left with a disability.

I won't pretend I can appreciate the emotional trauma you experienced, so please forgive me if I appear somewhat abrupt.

I've looked into this tragic event. Do you feel the (VW) driver's illegal intoxication level had resulted with his careless driving?

speedvictim wrote:
So I read with real interest all the above and am glad that intelligent discussion is going on. Until I read all of this I thought I was 100% for speed cameras – this is the only main route into Huddersfield from outlying communities that has nothing and has undoubtedly in my view, has been used as a speed run by youngsters. The improvements put into place by Kirklees certainly ‘feel’ safer but time will tell. This is a real test case which, as someone who was personally involved, will watch with passionate interest.

You might have read claims that cameras are greatly effective ("50% reduction of KSIs at camera sites"), unfortunately it's nothing more than clever spin by those whose income is dependent on cameras. Basically, cameras are placed where the KSI (Killed and Seriously Injured) level is expected to substantially reduce anyway. I can explain further if you wish.

We are concerned that our road safety policy's reliance on these speed cameras has resulted with the substantially reduced numbers of real traffic patrols; only the latter can detect and deter careless or impaired driving. Some councils have realised cameras have displaced resources from genuinely effective road safety measures, and they are adjusting their policy to suit.

speedvictim wrote:
I’d ban ‘top gear’ for a start - it's outrageous in it's blatent promotion of speed.

I have to disagree with your stance on Top Gear. While it is certainly possible that some could be encouraged to drive badly (those people likely have deeper rooted problems anyway), others could find it a useful emotional vent. Top Gear never came across to me as promoting bad behaviour, indeed they encourage things like 'track days' where car handling skills can be safely learned.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 15:46 
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adam.L wrote:
. I'd ban all these stupid lifestyle programmes that tell people they can all have a millionaire lifestyle, but that's just me.


No it isn't. Those programmes, and the National Lottery, are undermining the moral fabric of the nation.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 16:06 
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I can’t comment on the alcohol or accident details for the time being. My mind’s open on cameras – as I say I’ll watch to see if the other measures brought in by Kirklees on the road of my accident work. I hope so. I don’t have hard feelings or anger against anyone. Truly. Surely though the undisputed fact is that proportionally a number of young male drivers cause by far and away more deaths and serious injuries than the rest of the driving population. That's the point I raised. I’m all for keeping open minds and thinking clearly – anything that tackles this problem. As I said originally I nearly lost my life in the bloody carnage that ensued and tragically, someone else did lose theirs. Also, importantly, a young man has to live with this for the rest of his life.


Last edited by speedvictim on Sun Sep 19, 2010 16:56, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 16:44 
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speedvictim wrote:
I can’t comment on the alcohol or accident details for the time being. My mind’s open on cameras – as I say I’ll watch to see if the other measures brought in by Kirklees on the road of my accident work. I hope so. I don’t have hard feelings or anger against anyone. Truly. Surely though the undisputed fact is that proportionally a number of young male drivers cause by far and away more deaths and serious injuries than the rest of the driving population. That's the point I raised. I’m all for keeping open minds and thinking clearly – anything that tackles this problem. As I said originally I nearly lost my life in the bloody carnage that ensued and tragically, someone else did lose theirs. Also, importantly, a young man has to live with this for the rest of his life.

Attitude is certainly a key motivator to driving behaviour. I’m in no position to confidently comment on how bad attitudes could be tempered, but the most straightforward way to enforce it is to have a good level of road patrols.

There’s nothing to suggest that aggressive driving or overconfidence played a part in this tragedy; a simple distraction from one of the other three occupants could have initiated an unintended swerve. However, there may well have been a cavalier attitude towards the alcohol and the resulting level of impairment. No amount of camera enforcement can affect these, yet this policy has largely replaced the policing which could identify and stop it before it is too late.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 16:48 
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SpeedVictim, I have sent you a PM - your message link is at the top of each page. :typing:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 23:15 
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:welcome: Speedvictim! I'm sorry to hear about your plight, and I deeply admire you for coming on here and talking about it - thanks. You have experience that few of us have!

First of all, I have to say that despite being a "petrol head", I'm no big fan of Top Gear. I just don't think there's enough about cars in it. Interestingly, my 12 year old daughter likes it and she has no interest in cars or speed, whatsoever. I'm intrigued by this and have asked her what the appeal is. She comes out with "I like that funny man who is always trashing things". I think that pretty much sums it up. It's designed to appeal to a young audience but even they (on my statistically insignicant sample of 1!) don't take it seriously. If anything, it's the middle-aged car buffs like me that have been alienated! I've no idea how we'd get the figures, but it would be interesting to see if the KSI's in any particular age grup saw an upward turn when the programme adopted its current format. We need to remember that this is the demographic that also play "Grand Theft Auto" (or whatever it's called) on their computers!

As has been said, young lads do put themselves in danger. Only this afternoon, this story was on my computer's home page:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100918/twl ... d0ae9.html

Obviously, in a car, they can put other people in danger too - and I agree, a solution has to be found, but I'm not sure cameras are the answer. A few points are something of a "badge of honour" amongst certain factions and, of course, the big drawback of a camera is that it doesn't actually stop the offender - just sends the car's registered keeper a bill and some points up to a couple of weeks later. It seems to me that the only thing they're vulnerable to is peer pressure. Make them look stupid in front of their mates and they don't like that. Death or serious injury are relatively minor inconveniences by comparison. Quite how we build on that is something that has eluded me though!


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